Joined: Mar 2008 Gender: Male Posts: 24 Location: Nederland , Texas
Re: PDCA Petition « Result #1 Today at 12:13pm »
After a night of thinking and talking it over with my dad we have decided to cut our losses and help preserve the registry that we are members of . We spoke with the a board member this AM and decided that our best interest is helping to resolve this issue . We are dropping our herd sire out and will not be registering any of his offspring . This is a small step but i feel like i can sleep at night knowing i did my part .I hope that many can learn from all this i know we have
also on a side note i hope i didnt offend anyone by my part in any of this , i was simply protecting my animals until i got the information i needed.
Joined: Sept 2007 Posts: 681 Location: Church Road, VA
Re: PDCA Petition « Result #2 Today at 11:35am »
Believe it or not, I became involved in the mess when I was approached to buy semen for use as a control for calibrating DNA testing equipment. In the discussion, it was revealed that the lab had never done Dexter testing before and wanted to develop SNP's as a way of doing all Dexter testing for the PDCA. The first to buy straws was the PDCA genetics laison to the lab. We talked about Dexters and I blurted out my objections to using SNP's because of the inability to compare them to anything already on record. A series of emails ensued, but I didn't make any progress in my arguments. Some of the emails were copied to officers of the PDCA.
Then, I got an email asking me why I was helping try to validate a bunch of heifers that had been bought in a large lot, but weren't properly registered, because some were polled but the parents were horned. I was dumfounded. I started asking questions, and soon found out that the case of Golden Oak had been simmering for a while among the officers and I had blundered into it.
A lot of the information I got wasn't able to be verified. Some could be. I was interested because of the implications to the registry.
There were resignations, then un-resignations, removal of titles and restoring of titles, family feuds and power struggles. What a soap opera. Most of this took place in the PDCA, but those who should know in the ADCA did know. They appeared to be taking a wait-and-see attitude.
A separate inquiry came from the lab involved about buying semen. I sold them enough to make their tests. They used it for control to calibrate their instruments. My bull had been tested at two different labs and had been used to calibrate the instruments at the newer one.
Evidence was produced using SNP's that showed all the suspect heifers came from the same sire. However, it didn't identify who that sire was. Turns out, that was not the question, anyway. Nobody really suspected that there were that many spontaneous mutations among these heifers. Most thought that the sire was polled and had been registered as horned to escape scrutiny.
Lots of peole offered opinions, ranging from who the real sire was to the premise that the sire was heavily scurred, so he was accidentally registered as horned. No one had an answer as to how these animals came to be polled.
A consensus seemed to agree that Golden Oak is the true sire of these descendents, but Golden Oaks sire may not be as listed. Maybe his sire was a different young polled bull that lived on the same farm when Golden Oak was conceived. Maybe his sire was an unknown bull, belonging to a night visitor. There's no proof available to prove or disprove either of these suppositions or any other guess someone might make.
Part of the problem is that the genetic testing done on the group of heifers was done using SNP's. That means that there is no chance of ever comparing the results with bulls previously tested using microsatellites. Two noteworthy bulls have microsatellite tests on record: Aldebaran Priapus and Saltaire Platinum, sire of Hillside Mango. If the heifers had been tested using microsatellites, a good evaluation could be made as to whether either of these bulls was in their ancestry.
If it was Platinum, then the source of the polledness would be explained, a correction to the registry would be made, and the registry would reflect the true parentage. Life could go on and we could put our trust and belief in the integrity of the registry.
If it was Priapus, then the polled question would be unanswered, but at least it would be shown that the lineage was Dexter. The case would not be resolved, but the rest of us could breathe a little easier.
If neither of these bulls was present, then we could lend credence to the fence-jumper theory.
According to the rules put forth, in either of the last two cases, the proof would not be adequate to resolve the case, so the registration should not be allowed.
The petition addresses the case from a procedural view. It asks for changes to the administration that is handling the case. New people without personal interest in the case might better resolve it.
Not in the petition, but in a separate article in the Record, it was reported that the PDCA has elected to stick with microsatellite parentage testing for now, but asks that members voice their opinions to the officers about switching to SNP's. It's a different thing, but closely meshed with this case. This case just points up some of the problems we would encounter by switching now, before a way is discovered to compare the results to the thousands of genotypes already on file.
If you get a chance to talk to any one of your PDCA officers, bring this subject up and let them know how you feel.
My own feeling is that the registry is more important than any animal in it. The genetic database of thousands of Dexters is also very important, and needs to be preserved.
Joined: Nov 2008 Gender: Male Posts: 129 Location: Cowpens SC
Re: PDCA Petition « Result #3 Today at 5:39am »
Gene - you are correct. I started this thread to find out more about the issue after the petition arrived in my mailbox with no notice. This thread has brought forth more information about these animals than I could deduce from the petition. For example, I did not realize the connection to the ADCA registry as the petition does not mention the ADCA at all. I do not know any of the folks involved in this situation but, like you, feel the registry is most important. Nor do I even know if the statements made in the petition are entirely accurate. However, I do feel that anytime a conflict of interest exists, that person in a leadership role should immediately recuse him/herself from any part of the decision making process and make that position known publicly. That goes a long way toward eliminating the appearance of impropriety and favoritism.
Joined: Mar 2008 Gender: Male Posts: 24 Location: Nederland , Texas
Re: PDCA Petition « Result #4 Yesterday at 10:30pm »
Yes sir fully informed is what i have asked for more than once . im new to the Dexters but not cattle have sold 1500-2000 feeders a year until my dad talked me into this drama 2 years ago so i know the cattle buisness as for my 7 Dexters that is not a issue (i have a new bull) i have over 50 head of F-1 dexter/BW cross animals that i will have to buy back if this bull is not pure . What does that make me look like as a breeder? I would have never bought this bull had the ADCA stamp not been on his paperwork. so please understand i feel that i have been hood winked by a seal that ment nothing
I will do my part to correct this but i need proof that my bull doesnt belong. I am out to protect just as everyone else is Gerry
Re: Woodmagic founder has passed away « Result #5 Yesterday at 10:25pm »
Apart from everything else, Beryl never--ever--said anything bad or gossiped negatively about anyone, even when she had strong provocation. If for no other reason, that made her special.
She has left a legacy that will long be remembered. c.
Joined: Sept 2007 Posts: 681 Location: Church Road, VA
Re: PDCA Petition « Result #6 Yesterday at 9:57pm »
Gerry,
I'm reading from the petition. The first item on the petition reads:
"1. Ask the board member involved with the questionable registrations to resign from the Board and resign as laison to the lab, as his conflicts of interest are impeding his ability to represent the members."
The petition is the subject of this thread. It's what we've been discussing. It primarily involves PDCA members. If you are one, you should have gotten a copy of the petition.
Spare me the definition of slander. I have a dictionary already. It's not a factor here.
You're being pretty hard on me, aren't you? First you suggest that I said something I didn't, then accuse me of thinking I know it all. Where did you get that from?
I don't think I know it all. I do have a copy of the petition in front of me, so I do know what is written in it.
By assailing my motives, are you positioning yourself as being opposed to protecting the integrity of the registry? I know you said you own one of the descendents. I realize that you might resent my efforts to protect the registry. I hope you can understand that my position is in no way personal. I've never met you and have no malice toward you. Until you posted it here, I had no idea you were involved.
If you're looking for someone to blame for this, you're looking at the wrong person. I just came on the scene of this accident. My interest is not in the people and animals involved, but with the registry.
I can't see how you could possibly want a registration error to persist. Degrading the registry leaves us all with common cattle. Nothing but an honest, accurate, trustworthy registry defines and exalts them as Dexters.
You have 8 Dexters registered with the ADCA. Think about the other 7, instead of the 1. They need the registry to be indisputably correct. Their value, their very identity depends upon it.
You deserve to be fully informed. Would you like me to mail you a copy of the petition?
Joined: Mar 2008 Gender: Male Posts: 24 Location: Nederland , Texas
Re: PDCA Petition « Result #7 Yesterday at 8:34pm »
Gene are you saying someone is abusing their position as a officer also? You like to think you know it all except that you are building a case against yourself.
Slander is an act of communication that causes someone to be shamed, ridiculed, held in contempt, lowered in the estimation of the community, or to lose employment status or earnings or otherwise suffer a damaged reputation. And stating someone has abused their authority as an officer of the association for personal gain is indeed slander. Perhaps, he/she is merely attempting to defend himself/herself and the integrity of his/her animals. Just as you would for your herd... Gerry
Joined: Sept 2007 Posts: 219 Location: Spring Branch, Texas
Re: When's Lana Gonna Pop??? « Result #8 Yesterday at 4:34pm »
Kimberly, do you have any pictures of her udder? How many calves has she had before. She doesn't look to swollen in her vulva area. Sometimes however these cows can fool ya, and pop the little ones out when your least expecting it. Or keep you waiting for what seems like an eternity.
Joined: Feb 2009 Gender: Male Posts: 52 Location: Rigby, Idaho
Woodmagic founder has passed away « Result #10 Yesterday at 2:55pm »
From the Dexter Cattle for sale U.K message board:
Posted on: Dec. 29 2009,6:38
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- It is my sad duty as President to tell you that Beryl passed away a few minutes ago. We have lost an icon of our Dexter world. I understand she was with friends at the end so did not die alone. Thankyou to all those friends who cared so much. Di
A dream to be able to meet her in person one day has died. Our prayers go out to her, her friends, and beloved Dexters.
Joined: Sept 2007 Posts: 681 Location: Church Road, VA
Re: PDCA Petition « Result #12 Yesterday at 1:13pm »
What about the example that I gave of my friend's cattle. His calves all carried the Dexter dun gene. They got it from a dun Dexter bull. They were not registerable Dexters. They were all 1/2 Angus, and they were all polled and they were all black.
So a polled, non-Dexter heifer, 1/2 Angus, bore a dun calf. This calf is not a registerable Dexter, either.
I don't know whether the second generation dun calf is polled or not, but it could be. The dam is polled, so the calf had a 50% chance of being polled. I'll call my friend and ask. If the calf is polled, then here is an example of a polled, dun calf that had a non-Dexter parent. Not a mutation. The polledness would come from the Angus granddam.
To make it clear what I'm saying, I'll reword it. The dam of the dun second generation calf was not a Dexter. The breed standard for a Dexter in this country only allows calves from two registered Dexter parents. She does qualify as an Angus. The Angus standard allows any cattle with at least 50% Angus genetics and a black hide to be an Angus. So she was an Angus. A black, polled Angus. A black polled Angus that carried Dexter dun.
Crossbreeding takes place all the time. I've sold lots of straws to AI non-Dexter cattle, and have provided live service to more than a few cattle of other breeds. It's a practice that is often promoted, to ease the first births of cattle that have a hard time with their own breed calves. This is making a growing pool of cattle that carry Dexter genetics. All of the Dexter genetics, not just the ones that make small calves.
It's not new, either. Dexters have been used to bring down the size of other breeds, making miniature versions, for many years. Every one that was done got 50% of it's genetics from a Dexter. That had to include dun color.
These practices are the reason that the Cardiff study was unable to differentiate between Dexters and other breeds. They're so interbred and they all came from the same genetic pool. Many, many Dexter owners would love to have proof that Bullfinch has no other genetics in him, but the technology is not there to do it. The same is true in reverse. The only sure-fire way to prove descendency is using the accepted parentage verification methods.
There is the hang-up in the Golden Oak case. Genetic material is not available to prove parentage, as is required by PDCA rules. When the proof does not exist, and can't be produced, then the case is not proven and the registration must not be allowed. It's a matter of proof, that doesn't exist.
Not every registration requires proof of parentage. Those where a polled descendent is offered for registration with two horned parents listed as sire and dam do require proof. That is a reasonable requirement, to protect the integrity of the registry. Every officer of the Association is required to protect the integrity of the registry. That's their job.
Golden Oak's registration was accomplished under a false premise. He was registered as being horned. That bypassed any requirement for proof at the time of his registration. Now that the evidence has come out that he was indeed polled, the genetic proof, if it ever was capable of showing that he was a true Dexter, is no longer available.
Whose fault is that? Most likely it lies with the original owner, who registered him as being horned. It certainly is not the fault of the ADCA. It is the duty of the ADCA to revoke the registration of Golden Oak and his descendents, now that the evidence supporting his polledness has surfaced. The PDCA should now revoke the registration of his descendents that were registered based upon Golden Oak's registration in the ADCA.
The PDCA has already put a stop on accepting registrations of any more Golden Oak descendents and on transfers of any that are already in the registry.
A current owner of several of the descendents is trying to get the halt on registrations or transfers overturned. Surprisingly, he has some support from some officers of the PDCA. Maybe because he's an officer of the PDCA. What we, as members must do is to make our voices heard. We need the registry protected above all other considerations.
The ADCA is not being active in the question. They hold the original registration of Golden Oak and a few of his descendents. No other association, not the PDCA nor the CDCA, can revoke those registrations. The ADCA has not being petitioned by it's members, but it's the one association that could cure this problem.
I'm a member of both ADCA and PDCA. I value the registry above all else that the associations do. It's the only reason for the associations to exist. My greatest hope is for the ADCA and PDCA to find a way to recombine the registry into a single database. Well, actually my greatest hope is for the two associations to recombine into a single association, with a single registry. But even if that doesn't happen, the registries should be combined. Until then, let's do the very best we can to keep the registry as perfect and clean as possible. If an error is found, correct it.
The ADCA has taken a small step toward insuring the integrity of the registry by requiring genetic records of some registrants. Now show that you're serious about protecting the registry by taking action on this case. Please.
Re: PDCA Petition « Result #13 Yesterday at 10:14am »
Genebo,
The test that is performed for the "dun" gene in Dexters looks for a unique mutation in the TYRP1 gene. Dexters that are truly "Dexter Dun" (actually "Brown") are homozygous for this unique mutation at the TYRP1 gene on Bovine Chromosome 8. Other breeds (and species) may have the TYRP1 gene, but they do not have the same unique mutation in this particular gene that Dexters can have (at least none have been found to have it yet, unless they descended from a Dexter that carried it).
In a research study that was made and published several years ago, the TYRP1 gene detected in the two Simmental parents, a dun Belted Galloway sire and a Charolais/Red Angus sire did not influence their diluted coat colours which were inherited in a different way. The TYRP1 gene was also found to not be responsible for the taupe brown colour in the Braunvieh or Swiss Brown. But, "The amino acid change detected in all 25 dun Dexter cattle we examined was a tyrosine which is polar and neutral, replacing a histidine which is basic. This type of non-conservative amino acid change is consistent with a functional mutation."
Research on mice and dogs has shown that mutations in TYRP1 gene alter the shade of eumelanin pigment to various shades of brown. These mutations "occur in several different exons of TYRP1, but none affect amino acid 434 as did the dun Dexter mutation. Shades of eumelanin or brown pigment produced by TYRP1 mutations in mice and dogs vary widely but these colours are similar to the shades of coat colour in dun Dexter cattle." The authors of this research study suggested that this TYRP1 cattle allele be termed 'b', consistent with the terms used for mice.
So, just like Dexters have their own unique mutation for the PHA gene that can be genetically tested for (it occurs on the same gene as the PHA mutation that has been found in Shorthorns and Maine-Anjou, but it is a different mutation caused by the deletion of a different number of base pairs); Dexters also have their own unique mutation for the TYRP1 gene that can result in the color we know as "Dexter Dun", when an animal is homozygous for it (b/b) and carries at least one dominant black gene (ED).
Gary was right on target. I mentioned the dun factor because it helps to understand how other genetic tests can be used to provide "supporting" documentation to the genotype parentage testing. As you'll remember, genotype parentage testing/qualification actually depends on a process of exclusion. Color factor testing can be useful for screening out/excluding animals that don't carry the necessary genetics for producing the animal that is being evaluated. This helps to limit the number of animals that need to be tested for their genotype microsatellite marker panels (including the ISAG markers).
The chances of having a random, polled, "non-Dexter midnight fence jumper" carrying the Dexter Dun-factor mutation are remote. However, the chances of having a polled Dexter bull carrying the Dexter Dun-factor mutation (on a farm that was specifically breeding registered Dun Dexters and registered polled Dexters) are much greater. That is why I mentioned the important consideration of Hillside Golden Oak being a Dun animal. Qualification of a sire by genotype can be supported by (but not replaced by) the knowledge of the color genetics involved.
All Dun Dexter cattle have at least one copy of the 'ED' allele at MC1R and therefore produce eumelanin constitutively. A Dun Dexter animal must have the genotype 'ED/_, b/b'; and, thus far, the 'b' allele of TYRP1 has been found only in Dexter cattle (or their descendants).
Joined: Sept 2007 Posts: 681 Location: Church Road, VA
Re: PDCA Petition « Result #15 on Dec 28, 2009, 7:22pm »
"I thought Dexter dun was unique to Dexter cattle?? I read an article about TYRP1 which led me to believe their dun gene was different from other breeds??"
Dexter dun is a color unigue to Dexters. It is the result of the dun gene interacting with the black color gene. That is not to say that the same gene doesn't exist in other breeds or species. They just don't interact the same way to produce the Dexter dun color.
The point I was making is that another breed may carry the same gene, which when passed to a Dexter, would produce Dexter dun. Even though it didn't do that in the original breed. The important word here is 'MAY'. The test for TYRP1 isn't normally run on cattle. It's done on request for Dexter cattle. We have so little information about TYRP1 in other breeds that It would be improper to infer that a dun Dexter must always come from two Dexter parents. That is a supposition that has not been proven.
I have a friend who has been breeding a dun Dexter bull to Angus cows for several years. Every Angus/Dexter calf he gets carries the Dexter dun gene. They're all black, of course. Occasionally he will keep a particularly nice heifer and breed her back to the dun Dexter bull. Once he got a dun calf. That dun calf did not have two Dexter parents.
Joined: Jun 2009 Gender: Female Posts: 42 Location: Spicewood TX
Re: Igenity Test Results « Result #17 on Dec 28, 2009, 4:10pm »
Got all my results back today. We are PHA free. Yay! So we are now officially non-chondro and PHA free herd. SO glad that we won't have to test any of our calves in the future. It definitely simplifies things!
Joined: Feb 2009 Gender: Male Posts: 52 Location: Rigby, Idaho
Re: Pregnancy testing today « Result #18 on Dec 28, 2009, 2:48pm »
Amen. I tried on 4 and got 1 good samples with a first time attempt. 2 after a second or third try and a really upset animal, several ruined vacutainers, and evacuated kids from the area due to my mood and language before giving up on the last one.
Joined: Feb 2009 Gender: Male Posts: 52 Location: Rigby, Idaho
Re: PDCA Petition « Result #20 on Dec 28, 2009, 2:37pm »
I believe Patti indicated that there was a paternity test protocal given to those involved that needs to be followed before determination of sire qualification can be given. Her comments about dun, seemed more of a reassurance to those involved that indications are that the sire was a Dexter, it just needs to be proven or determined who that sire was. Dun was not listed as the deciding factor, just a factor pointing to a positive resolution rather than an outcross problem. Hopefully genotyping will eliminate these problems in the future and there will be no more gray cases that cloud an animals "purity". If genetic samples are available due to genotyping & color/PHA/Chondro testing, these issues should be easier to resolve in the future. I hope everyone has a wonderful New Year full of Dexter Joy.
Joined: Nov 2008 Gender: Male Posts: 129 Location: Cowpens SC
Re: Pregnancy testing today « Result #21 on Dec 28, 2009, 2:23pm »
I have found the key is to insert the needle just off the midline of the tail, 2-4 inches up from the base of the tail. I insert the needle quickly and firmly and, if no blood is immediately present, move it around slightly. This can include retracting the needle slightly because sometimes you will go through the vein. If you are patient and work the needle around, a lot of times you will find the vein without having to re-stick the cow. As I understand the anatomy, you are basically hitting a vein between the vertebrae on the cow's tail. Once you find it, a vacutainer can be inserted onto the collection needle and then filled quickly. I don't put the vacutainer onto the needle until I see a reasonable flow of blood coming out the collection needle. Otherwise you can waste a lot of vacutainers thinking you have blood flow when you don't. Once the vacutainer seal is punctured it is only good for that collection. If you lose the vacuum and have to restick the cow, a new vacutainer is required. It is one of those things that you get a lot better after getting the hang of it. I felt sorry for the first few cows I "learned" on!
Joined: Sept 2007 Posts: 219 Location: Spring Branch, Texas
Re: Pregnancy testing today « Result #22 on Dec 28, 2009, 1:58pm »
Charles, I think that's pretty darn good. I watched my VET stick one of my animals 3 times. We were paying real close attention to how it was being done, so we can do it in the future. Well I shouldn't say "we" I should say my husband. Your article "Blood Collection 101 for Dexters" in the ADCA winter bulletin was also informative, thanks.
Re: PDCA Petition « Result #23 on Dec 28, 2009, 1:53pm »
I thought Dexter dun was unique to Dexter cattle?? I read an article about TYRP1 which led me to believe their dun gene was different from other breeds?? Off subject--sorry-- Rhonda
Joined: Nov 2008 Gender: Male Posts: 129 Location: Cowpens SC
Re: Pregnancy testing today « Result #24 on Dec 28, 2009, 1:42pm »
I would be happy to do so. I don't profess to be an expert about it, but I did get 3 out of 5 the first time today! One I had to stick twice, the other one I had to stick 4 times. I have learned a few techniques that seem to work for me at least.
This round of testing will tell us if Midas is an expectant father yet!
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