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Post by judy on Mar 24, 2011 22:40:16 GMT -5
The Dexter cattle breed was established by herd book in the late 1880's. They were considered to the smallest of the European cattle breeds and a HORNED breed. . small in number. At times in their history their have been a couple of "bottlenecks" when the numbers in the breed dropped to crisis levels.
*IF* you really adore the Dexter breed as so many proclaim, than I beg you to consider the damage and destruction that is being done to this breed with the use of polled cattle.
Consider this: In the 1920's when polled Herefords were introduced to that breed they were the dominant beef breed in America. There were hundreds of thousands of HORNED Herefords in the US. In less than 50 years the horned Hereford breed was decimated.
Think about this folks. Please. Saltaire Platinum, an UPGRADED bull from England, ( recorded in their herd book records and not on just one occasion- with a gr-gr grandmother of Angus stock)
was registered as number . . . . 6504. . .in the US herdbook.
Do you realize that there were only 6503 Dexters registered for all time in America when he was entered in the registry? How many do you think were still living and breeding?
How long do you think before the HORNED DEXTER breed in the US is literally wiped out?
Please do not suggest it doesn't make a difference folks. It is literally changing and destroying a RARE heritage breed of cattle.
Let me repeat. . . if YOU admire the Dexter breed, how could you be party to the destruction of the breed? How can you possibly believe what is happening is harmless and of no consequence?
Polled breeders are participating in the destruction of the Horned Dexter breed. The numbers cannot be denied. Tragic.
It is NOT " a matter of personal preference" . It is the very life blood of a breed of unique and special cattle. If you are not part of the solution. . . then you are part of the problem.
Judy
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Post by judy on Mar 24, 2011 23:24:33 GMT -5
If you have decided that you would prefer to be part of the solution in helping preserve the original HORNED Dexter breed consider this as a start.
If you use a Dexter from a traditional HORNED bloodline in your breeding program, please consider returning her to a breeding program where she will be used to breed HORNED Dexters.
There are many traditional bloodline HORNED Dexters that are being used in polled breeding programs. Everytime a polled calf is born from one of these cows. . . . a HORNED bloodline is lost. . . . FOREVER. Establish your polled herd from existing polled bloodlines or if you must use a traditional HORNED Dexter than please make an effort to return the traditional Dexters back into traditional HORNED breeding programs.
STOP taking the horns off Dexter cattle. YOU have purchased a horned Dexter. The leadership has been remiss in not protecting the horned cattle especially for the lack of education regarding handling them. You teach your children not to go near the woodstove. . . . you teach your children not to run into traffic or get in cars with strangers. It is NO different to teach your children how to take care around horned cattle. Do you think for one minute that the Longhorn breed would allow the very identify of their breed to be erased in this manner? or Highland cattle? Heck no! Yet Dexter cattle breeders have given very little thought or effort to protecting the identity or phenotype of this unique and special breed!
YOU must decide to care or it will soon be too late. Look at the old photos. Look at the new. Do you see how much is being lost? That's on the outside. How much are we losing on the inside? Do you want this breed to survive and thrive in the same state that became so valuable to our ancestors who preserved them for our current enjoyment and use? YOU must become aware and become part of the solution.
Judy
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Post by kansasdexters on Mar 26, 2011 20:04:39 GMT -5
Godstone Esmeralda (DCS #F10531) is the source of the polled gene in Saltaire Platinum. She was born on May 5, 1984 and deceased on 12/31/2004, according to the online Dexter Cattle Society (DCS) online pedigree. Godstone Esmeralda is the fully registered offspring of a fully registered horned Dexter bull and a fully registered horned Dexter cow. The DCS continues to register her descendents and the offspring of her grandson, Saltaire Platinum.
Godstone Esmeralda's son, the sire of Saltaire Platinum, was Migh Poldark, and he was registered in the DCS main pedigree as a polled Dexter bull. Migh Poldark, was born on 4/28/1987, according to the DCS online pedigree. Migh Poldark's sire, Westfield Merlin, was a fully registered horned Dexter bull. The offspring of Migh Poldark, have been registered by the DCS from 3/20/1989 through 3/18/1992.
Migh Poldark's son, Saltaire Platinum, a heterozygous polled bull, was registered in the DCS main pedigree, as a polled Dexter bull. Saltaire Platinum's offspring have been registered by the DCS since 8/17/1992 and the latest registration was made for a calf born on 7/28/2008. In the United States, the offspring for Saltaire Platinum have been registered with the ADCA since 1994.
Every internationally recognized Dexter cattle registry in the world accepts polled Dexter cattle from a pedigreed Dexter sire and a pedigreed Dexter dam for purebred registration.
Thus, the Dexter breed includes both horned and polled animals. In 2011, this is the way it is. Every breeder has the choice to breed horned or polled, red, black, or dun, Chondro-carrier or Chondro-free, PHA-carrier or PHA-free, A1 Beta Casein or A2 Beta Casein, and a multitude of other variables.
The emotional "pleas" and "spin doctored words" to the contrary are simply not based on the facts, they are just opinions or preferences. The Dexter breed is not being "ruined", it is adapting. In order to survive, a breed must adapt. The Dexter breed is a "survivor" breed and it has the genetic diversity to adapt, survive, and thrive.
The only "constant" in life is change. Life is always changing, and to survive and thrive, a cattle breed must adapt and it must perform, and it must meet the needs of its owners and breeders. There are no exceptions to this requirement. Thankfully, so far, the Dexter cattle breed (horned and polled) meets and exceeds these requirements.
Patti
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Post by wdd on Mar 26, 2011 23:17:14 GMT -5
And now you know the rest of the story.
Thanks Patti and all the others who have shown consideration to others ideals and likes, by not letting their own preferrences cloud their thinkiing and treatment of others.
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Post by ctownson on Mar 27, 2011 5:30:34 GMT -5
Great history Patti, thanks!
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Post by judy on Mar 27, 2011 10:15:07 GMT -5
Good morning,
Gary, I take exception to your comment. There are NO proven polled Dexters anywhere in the world. Not a single proven mutation. I treasure the qualities of the Dexter breed. I fear the changes I see taking place. I have not identified or directed my comments to any individual breeder. I plead with all breeders as a collective effort to raise awareness of a threat and crisis in the traditional HORNED Dexter breed. If you are breeding polled and you are feeling a twinge of guilt that you could be part of the future extinction of rare, and special qualities in a unique little breed of cattle - that's a good thing - - but it isn't about others "ideals" and "likes" Gary. . . . it is about the very life-blood of the Dexter breed. Dexters were NOT organized as a polled breed. They are a HORNED breed. Look at the early photos of HORNED Dexters. Can you mistake them for any other breed?
NO! ! ! Can you today? YES! It is unfair of you to suggest that I do anything other than try to save a breed I treasure and believe to be worth saving. Have you seen posts on the internet from early breeders of Angus, Jersey, and even Holstein who lament the loss of their traditional animals? Have you ever made similar comments? If you breed polled that IS your business. It is MY business to try and raise awareness that a complete and total lack of leadership to educate breeders as to the value and handling of horned cattle, preserve traditional genetics, compile statistics, seperate the polled from the horned so that BOTH factions have knowledge and information within their bloodlines, has now placed the traditional HORNED Dexter bloodlines in crisis.
I never criticize any breeder by name, nor do I EVER tell ANY breeder NOT to breed polled. It isn't my business or my style. I only address those personally who do not speak to my efforts in the collective but in the personal. However, I DO have a desire for preservation and I speak collectively to the polled breeders to make them aware that something they valued from the literature of old is being lost in realities of the modern.
Why do you feel *I* should not have the right to make this case to members of this breed without the disparaging remark you made and which I quote " Thanks Patti and all the others who have shown consideration to others ideals and likes, by not letting their own preferrences cloud their thinkiing and treatment of others".
That is patently untrue anyway. The post you reference was not without an agenda or position anymore than mine are.
Have I not always treated YOU with respect and friendship as I have any person who has passed my way and treated me the same? Have I not been considerate of you as I am of every person who passes my way? I have never told YOU personally how or what to breed as I have never told any other person including family members and friends with whom I have a closer relationship and influence.
I am disheartened by your comment Gary. It was unfair and I find it unlike you.
Judy
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Post by wdd on Mar 27, 2011 14:20:26 GMT -5
Judy,
My comment was not directed at you. It was in recognition of what David (the originator of this tread) commented about in his post at the bottom of page two. I am not holding myself blameless since my comments about Model A's and Ferrari's can be construed as bias. I have bred two polled animals, neither met with my satisfaction and are now taking up space in someone elses freezer. I applaud many of the thing you have done over the years. I have made mistakes and will continue to do so. I have just seen too many posts here and elsewhere that ask for help and in return the poster is attacked and burdened by other information and judgements, while their original question and plea for assistance is ignored.
It reminds me of the young child that asked his mother where babies come from. She took a deep breath decided to give an honest answer. She proceeded to tell him the complete birds and bees lecture. The shocked child replied that they were just wondering if they came out of the belly because a friend told him they came from the hospital. Sometimes a simple answer will do or a question is needed to verify what information and answer is sufficient for the inquiry.
We all love these animals and nobody likes to be told they are ruining something they love or that their management practices have to be changed to conform to anothers ideal. I have not decided whether to breed for polled animals yet or not. Many bulls I like happen to be polled. I choose not to breed carrier type animals, but I do not attack anyone who chooses too (although I may become intolerant of someone who tries to force their oppinion on others). My intent was not to offfend but to help us all to reassess how we go about 'Helping' others.
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Post by Clive on Mar 27, 2011 15:32:31 GMT -5
I have a descendant of Godstone Esmeralda, Moonshine Sunrise. She a great cow, possibly my best beef producer, but even though pedigree registered Dexter, she is clearly an Angus. I don't have a pic of her to hand, but here's a calf from her sired by my red bull. All her calves look the same and are polled (and big)....  Edited...Sunrise is about to calve to a pedigree Angus for the first time, so it'll be interesting to see how different the calf is. |
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Post by allmuxedup on Mar 28, 2011 10:54:34 GMT -5
I too lament the demise of the true to ancient type, HORNED Dexter.  I don't understand why people who claim to like something so much insist on turning it into something else <..>. Edited because many found comment offensive and defamatory of Dexter breed. |
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Post by judy on Mar 28, 2011 11:24:36 GMT -5
WDD - Your explanation is accepted, but you did NOT receive the full story and Charles having someone give you a registration number and parentage isn't a full story either since the only way to know parentage is to parentage confirm. ( And Legacy does that BEST).
The Dexter breed survived because they were tough little cows with likely one of the strongest immune systems found in all of cattledom along with the ability to process any forage they eat to it's maximum potential. Those are only two of the internal traits that when changed. . will cost us our breed. We can see in modern Dexters that in many instances the literature doesn't match reality.
<In> " The World of Dexters", written on the 2nd Dexter Congress, where a paper was presented to the WORLD. For those who want the hoedown;
From, " The World of Dexters", published by the English Dexter Society: I quote: The dam of Migh Poldark, Godstone Esmeralda 10531, was claimed to be a novel mutation to polled, but was herself from a herd containg polled cattle upgraded from crossbreds, and with major inconsistencies in earmarks. (Earmarks in England are the equivalent of tattoos or other permanent ID in America and England is much more stringent about timely registrations and recording of earmarks._).
Many of the early and most experienced and respected breeders in England did not believe there was ever a mutation. They laugh at American's for believing that story and further more the sister of the owner of one of the principal animals in this drama has laughingly and clearly said there was no mutation. ( Besides the polled issue there ARE a number of animals in this bull's pedigree from the English upgrading program - including Jersey and Angus). Mutation or not it didn't matter so much in England. . . they had a very active upgrading program and many of the animals in their registry came from these upgraded bloodlines. In America there has never been an upgrading program. SP has made a tremendous difference in our bloodlines besides the polled issue. There has never been a proven polled mutation in the Dexter breed, and the fact that other countries have polled is for the same reason as America. . . they honored the English herd books where the polled animals were registered and they also imported these bloodlines. We DID NOT have to honor it or import this bull. Why did we? In the US it is a requirement that any supposed mutation be parentage confirmed. However, there ARE animals in the registry not from SP bloodlines that are polled from two horned parents that were never required to prove their parentage. ADCA will bend ANY rule at ANY time. (Unless it has something to do with preserving purity. They tend to make up rules to get in the way of that effort).
There is no shortage of non-confirmed animals in the ADCA registry. Are we to risk a rare breed while pretending the parentage is accurate when the argument made to assure it was a mutation has been debunked?
The Dexter cattle in America that look more like Angus than Dexters didn't get that way from nature. That happened on the opportunists journey to deposit their profits in the bank. We can see the exterior adaptation of man's choices. . we cannot see the interior changes. Any breeder can see how drastically the breed in America has changed by looking at the photos. Go to the "breed in crisis" page of the Legacy website, ( DexterCattleAmericanLegacy.info). Look at those photos. How many animals in your herd . . .horned or polled look like the unique Dexters of the past? That change didn't come about because Dexters adapted to circumstances of nature. . . it was brought about by man and the biggest changes have occurred after the 1980 imports with the upgraded genetics.
This is also important as far as polled goes. Dexters will NOT adapt to commercial use. It has been tried in the past. There has been research and experimental efforts. They just will not. They are a niche breed. A great cow for the homesteader or small meat producer. You don't need to take off the horns for that! The two largest herds I know in America being used to produce beef have HORNS! So, when they have taken off the horns of the Dexter breed and destroyed their unique phenotype and they all look like some upgraded beef animal, ancestry unknown. . . . . WHO is going to want them? Where's the market going to be? You can get that at any sale barn today. As soon as the opportunists cannot realize significant profit from newcomers into the breed who buy from literature and talking points based on TRADITONAL HORNED Dexter genetics. . . . the breed is lost. The Dexter breed has survived because they are unique and special. There are more and more reports of issues in this breed that are not common to Dexters.
The statistics are piling up. We are losing our breed. Can't we please just consider an effort to go backwards instead of forwards? You would put your car in reverse to keep from driving off the cliff. . . . the Dexter cliff is right there in front of us.
Clive - Thanks for the pictures and for your comments. The folks in America with common sense and no money in the game seem to have no problem taking note of the differences in the phenotype appearances of many of our animals and I see many polled that look more like beef breed animals than any traditional Dexter I've ever owned.
There has always been a rumor that Saltaire Platinum had some Murray Gray in his DNA. One day I saw a photo of a Murray Gray bull on the internet that struck me as eerily similar to a photo of SP. I copied it and printed it out and went and did the same for the photo of SP. They are almost interchangable. ( If anyone would like copies to affirm this story I will be happy to send them along). It is waaaay too close for comfort. Maybe I'll learn how to put up a photo and post them.
That bull you posted has a strong physical resemblance to the AI photo of SP as well !
Judy
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Post by marion on Mar 28, 2011 11:48:34 GMT -5
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Post by ctownson on Mar 28, 2011 16:38:32 GMT -5
Marion - Interesting you mention the height. First, our herd sire is polled for a number of reasons that we think are important in our program. Our red polled bull is 2 years old next month. He stands exactly 42" tall at the hip and is chondro-free. He weighs approximately 850 lbs. His disposition is incredibly easy-going; any calm person can walk up to him in the middle of a 10 acre pasture, put a halter on him and walk him. That is what we breed for and that is what our customers want. We will never win a show with him because the bulls he goes up against are huge compared to him - both horned and polled. I suspect many of them weigh 1200 lbs, maybe more. So, we are breeding a bull that is well within the suggested criteria as published by the ADCA and we are passing along his gentle disposition. These are the decisions that all breeders get to make when choosing animals.
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Post by judy on Mar 28, 2011 18:34:23 GMT -5
Chuck, 42" tall at the hip at two years of age is going to be at least. . . at least 45" tall by the age of 5 and I think you will find he will mature taller than that, ( I'm guessing 47" minimum) and since I have not looked at the ancestry and know nothing about how Angus mature. . . the Angus genetics could make it more. *I* think that 42" at 2 years old is large. Bulls usually have a considerabe growth spurt between 3 & 5. . . and it makes no difference their size at birth. . . the genetics are for the size at maturity.
Judy
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Post by marion on Mar 28, 2011 18:55:10 GMT -5
Judy I posted that link to speak to the "Murray Gray" issue and the 'earmark' issue that you raised. Also it is helpful to show newer people how long this has been going on.
Your last post a prime example of why you were banned on most other boards..marion
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Post by ctownson on Mar 28, 2011 19:08:05 GMT -5
Well, time will tell on his size and I will certainly let you know if he grows to that size. Based on the other 2 year old Dexter bulls that I have seen shown (both horned and polled), ours is significantly shorter and smaller.
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