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Post by otf on Jun 29, 2011 18:00:20 GMT -5
Wanette, please slow down. "Calf is trying to nurse from grandma cow so if she will hurry up and calf it looks like that issue will be resolved." Does this mean your calf is trying to nurse from a cow who has not yet calved? If so, then your calf will be taking the colostrum from that cow and HER calf, yet to arrive, will not get any colostrum. This will complicate your problems, not solve them. Up until now, I believe you've mentioned having only the two cows and one calf -- is this correct? IMO, the last thing you need at this point in time is a bull. I suggest you do a little reading (a good place to start would be "Getting Started with Beef & Dairy Cattle" by Heather Smith Thomas) and perhaps speak with your regional director (Oklahoma?) Gene Pittman. He's knowledgeable and should be able to give you some guidance. (His email is genepittmanadca@gmail.com and his telephone number is 918-456-4732). Also, learn all you can about genetic testing for Dexters, and much of this is on the ADCA website. A milking stanchion is great, provided it is strong and the cow can be safely trained to it. I'm concerned that you are rushing in many directions at once and are going to be disappointed when things don't fall into place. Read more: dextercattle.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=reproduction&action=post&thread=1727&page=2#ixzz1Qhvx5YGd
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Post by wanette on Jun 29, 2011 21:26:27 GMT -5
otf, it's not my nature to slow down, family saying, I'll rest when I'm dead. You make a good point about letting the calf hang out with grandma too much but mom is leaving in the am to a milking whisperer, I hope. I promise to put calf in the corral for 3 days when new calf is born. I never anticipated having a bottle baby and the sooner I'm done with that the better, and I sure didn't want a milk cow. Am I tired and frustrated? You bet, but things will work out, I just need to adjust and find plan B, C, & D. I have to have a plan, that's just how I'm wired. Yes, I have a bull, he is great looking but the guy I talked with today was emphatic about "cutting off his nuts!" Think I'll just haul him to the sale barn, because my cows and the heifer will be in season soon and then I will have a whole other set of problems. I also have a charolais steer who is looking great and an abandoned angus cross heifer, if she breeds great, if not, into the freezer. His name is Sir Loin and she is Miss Filet. I have cattle for beef, I choose Dexters because of their high quality beef, easy care, hardiness, small size and gentleness. So far I'm fairly happy with them, this one cow has been the only real problem and for her I have a plan. I have several books on cattle, one by the author you mention, and I read them. I'm also trying to get a home repaired from tornado damage, so yeah, I have lots going on. Don't worry about me being dissapointed, in this case I can eat my problems.
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Post by otf on Jun 30, 2011 7:43:46 GMT -5
Wanette, I feel as if I've been a bit overzealous in my replies to you here, trying to help in a difficult situation with suggestions as to what I myself would do. So, with apologies to you, I am backing off of this thread.
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Post by Star Creek Dexters on Jun 30, 2011 11:49:03 GMT -5
Wanette, I think your doing great! Being very proactive and staying on top of things. No one knows when these types of things will happen with cattle, and you have done a great job of finding info, help, and making choices that will help turn this situation around for the best.
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Post by wanette on Jun 30, 2011 15:57:33 GMT -5
otf, no need to apolize, you have been very helpful and showing concern and trying to help resolve. If anyone should apolize it is me, I have a tendency to drive those around me frantic when I'm trying to work out a problem because I never shut up about it. You have just been trying to help me fix things, so I thank you for your input. It was all good. Patti was able to put me in touch with a great guy who is helping Lil' learn to milk, I was there for the first lesson, it went great, and I learned alot too, and even milked some. I think she will be back home in a few days, hubby is building stanchion as I type. Thank you, Kimberly, for the stanchion plans. The baby is just going to be a bottle baby and that is that but now we have choices we can make about the next one. I have alot of research to do before we make a final decision on the bull and if anyone wants to send me a message with an opinion I would welcome it, I want to do what is best for the breed but I only have one man's opinion right now and am open to others. This is certainly something I will contact Gene about as otf suggested.
Wanette
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Post by ctownson on Jun 30, 2011 19:33:51 GMT -5
Wanette, based on my reading the posts, it seems your bull is pha positive - is that correct? If so, that means that 50% of your calves from him would carry pha. Pha carriers are going to fetch a lot less money than non-carriers in my opinion. Your bull is half of your herd any way you look at it. We spent a lot of time and research to select our herd bull to insure he was not only pha and chondro free, but also had the conformation and disposition we were looking for. The bull is such an important part of your program and you need to make decisions based on his genetics and goals you have set for your farm.
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Post by wanette on Jun 30, 2011 20:03:42 GMT -5
I completely agree with you on the importance of a bull, you can improve so much of a herd with a good bull. I'm curious where the dexter association or breeders stand on a bull like this, I'd assume that they would prefer that he not be used for breeding or even sold. Is this issue grave enough that the sale of a carrier could be prevented? I want more beef less milk, how do I go about finding a bull with that? I have read pedigrees but the names don't mean anything, where do I look for that info?
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Post by kansasdexters on Jun 30, 2011 20:38:58 GMT -5
Hi Wanette,
Unless your bull has been tested for PHA, don't assume that he carries the gene. The pedigree helps to identify animals that are descendants of Woodmagic Wheatear, the cow that brought the PHA gene to North America when she was imported into Canada in 1979. There are many high quality animals that have descended from this cow. She had some excellent qualities including longevity, fertility, conformation, and temperament. She was a foundation cow for the Aldebaran herd owned by Eric Lawlor (a Canadian veterinarian). She was flushed for embryos (and these were exported to Australia) and her sons were collected for AI -- that's how good she was. Unfortunately, she also had a defective gene - the PHA gene. It took 30 years to figure it all out.
Other breeders had descendants of this cow and they were some of the best animals in their herd. Before there was PHA testing for Dexters (starting in November 2008), there was no way to know which animals carried the gene and which did not -- until two PHA-carriers were mated and a PHA-affected calf resulted (only a 25% probability of that outcome in a carrier x carrier mating).
I still have semen for Aldebaran Priapus, a son of Woodmagic Wheatear, and a PHA-carrier. I fully intend to use this semen to breed cows that I've tested to be PHA-free (so there is no chance of getting a PHA-affected calf) and from these breedings, I will test the resulting calves and these have a 50% probability of being PHA-free (and a 50% probability of being PHA-carriers). The test for PHA only costs $26 and we have an excellent market for the grassfed/grass finished Dexter beef that we produce. There is no effect on the value of the beef if an animal is a PHA-carrier. Our finished Dexter steers are worth about $1,400 each, so its a win-win. Keep the best animals as breeding stock, test them to determine PHA-status, manage the breedings (PHA-carrier x PHA-free), and produce the highest quality beef and PHA-free future breeding stock.
Patti
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Post by wanette on Jul 1, 2011 9:10:55 GMT -5
Ok, first order of business is to test my bull and cows for pha, right. Only by testing can I be sure what I have to deal with. While I'm having testing done might as well have this cow tested for A2 as well.
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Post by kansasdexters on Jul 1, 2011 9:47:51 GMT -5
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Post by cddexter on Jul 1, 2011 11:13:13 GMT -5
Patti...is Eric a vet? I've known him since 1987, and as far as I know, he's always worked for the State Ministry of Agriculture, and spent a lot of his time in the 4-H division. c.
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Post by goldshaftdexters on Jul 2, 2011 6:32:58 GMT -5
Genebo - "The only way to avoid these pitfalls of genetics is to start out with perfect cattle. Everybody should try to do that." Where can I get some? Are you able to export some to Australia for me? I haven't seen a perfect cow yet. ;D My cows have lots of faults but I (think) I am aware of (most) of them & I am having a lot of fun trying to get closer to the perfect cow. It is a huge learning curve & extremely satisfying when a decision you make to (hopefully) improve the breed by choosing a bull to help correct a particular fault actually works! Wanette - congratulations on asking questions & congratulations to this forum & contributors for being so helpful!! The best way to learn is to ask, ask, ask - no question is a stupid question. Andrea
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Post by wanette on Jul 3, 2011 12:16:13 GMT -5
Patti, Thanks for the links, for some reason I couldn't access from the ADCA website. Wanette
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Post by hrfohio on Sept 2, 2011 0:30:13 GMT -5
Wanette,
I'm totally new to cattle and the dexters. I'm looking at a cow and heifer that I intend to have tested. I like them because of their temperment. Even if their tests come back poor, I intend to 'fix' it through using the best bulls I can find. So, I've decided to NOT have a bull at all and figure out how to use AI for now. Hopefully that will also save me some opsie babies. This is because IF I keep a bull, he isn't going to 'earn' his keep and soon I'll be stuck with who do I breed his off-spring to?
So for now, I'm searching for AI techs in my area and a place to store straws and I've been drooling over a bull in NC that is A2/A2, pha/chondro fee, a champion, son of a champion milking cow and throws 100% polled babies. Unfortunately, he's red... I'd rather black.
I figure if I choose a different bull for the next three years and test off spring and only keep the best breeding animals, eventually I'll get to a number of cows where I can justify purchasing an unrelated bull and I'll have learned enough to know what I'm looking for in a bull or bull calf.
Even keeping one bull, when I looked at feed/vet costs + the separate pasture and pen.. I hate to be cold, but the 1 1/2 acre that bull might graze could be supporting a cow that could give me at least some milk and produce good quality calves... then add the purchase price of a bull that is really good (vs just one that is still in tact)... it seems to come out cheaper to do AI.
I'm hoping to breed dairy/oxen with family cow temperment, but I also want to make sure that my herd is at least a good reprentative of the breed. In my area, there are people who breed any pony that has spots and there are some sorry looking (bad conformation) horses around here.
Right now as a potential buyer, I'm very frustrated with dexter breeders. I can't tell you how many I've talked to that have "registered dexters", but they're not handled, never been milked (but should produce good cause the calves didn't starve) and not tested for anything. Yet, they want twice the price of what I'd pay for a good quality jersey cow already trained to milk!
Anyway... we may not be able to start out with perfect cattle, but we can try to get closer with each generation :-)
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Post by wanette on Sept 2, 2011 22:06:36 GMT -5
hrfohio- it can be completely overwhelming to make some of the most important choices, such as which one to buy, what makes this one more than that one ect. I learned alot when I attended the AGM this year in Stillwater, OK, it was only 30 miles from me, but the more shows you attend it would help you begin to see the difference in animals. It sounds like you have horses so you probably already have an eye for conformation. Only you can decide the bull issue, just remember, with cattle you can eat your mistakes! I'm finding out that to resell a problem is just another problem. I will say that I have learned alot from my problem cow and her udder, the abandoned holstein cross heifer that has been TROUBLE, and the bull headed for freezer camp. Alot of these things could have been avoided if I had taken some time to do some research but I have gained alot of confidence about handling my cattle and I don't get so worked up about stuff. Good luck in your search for your Dexter's, I enjoy mine and plan on having them for many years.
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