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Post by Deleted on May 28, 2013 21:02:22 GMT -5
Donna, If you want to select for longevity, fertility, maternal instinct, and calving ease -- these are the cows that have proved themselves over and over, thus they are the elite group from which to evaluate and select bull calves from. They are worthy of being "bull mothers". They also produce some pretty fine replacement heifers. When we first started our herd, we sought out a yearling bull from an older cow that met our criteria. It was well worth the effort. Patti Hi Patti I now see what you mean, but I would take this approach with caution. While we, as breeders do want longevity, fertility, maternal instinct, and calving ease, (after all those mentioned qualities is what assisted us to make the final decision to become Dexter owners and not Lowline owners), balance, appealing to the eye, triple purpose physical traits of a Dexter are of more importance and is our stud’s primary focus at the moment. I have seen some pretty ugly and physically unbalanced cows in their mid-teens who fit the description of a ‘Bull-Mother’ to a “T” but gosh, we would never even consider a herd sire from these. A well balanced and ‘appealing to the eye’ Dexter is more important to us – if “SHE” also comes with the above traits – then fantastic. Our 5 boys are different to each other, with each only complimenting certain females within our herd. We would never consider or believe that one of our bulls would have the ability to genetically suit every single one of our girls………to think this way is ludicrous! Which is why those without space / facilities for multiple bulls, should seriously consider AI where their herd sire isn’t the best choice for a cow. Breeding for type and structure requires the use of multiple bulls. Breeding for commercial purpose of producing beef requires only one bull to do the deed. Cheers Donna
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Post by Deleted on May 28, 2013 21:11:56 GMT -5
Hi Judy Agree, agree, agree – with one small addition……………… “If an owner gets good and sufficient milk from teets that are different in length and circumference and it raises nourished calves it is good enough.” Yes and for now in this time, with said cow, I absolutely agree. BUT ................. we would search and seek the semen of a bull who could / have the potential to improve on her udder in her daughters while allowing her to pass on her most desirable traits etc, etc. And this is what our stud’s breeding program is based around. Ive stated many a times, we don’t cull for lack of perfection in our Dexters – otherwise, our paddocks would be empty and our freezers would be full. Cheers Donna
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Post by Deleted on May 28, 2013 21:23:46 GMT -5
Mike, The following article will help to clarify the role of mtDNA and its importance in the effect of selecting along maternal pedigree lines: www.angusjournal.com/ArticlePDF/AJ0704_mothers.pdfMuch of these research findings can be applied to any cattle breed. Patti Perfect Patti – also a big thank you. Many a great breeders of bovines always have high regards and place much importance on maternal lines, heck the Spanish do it for their bulls for the arena. And while I agree a cow has great influence on the personality and temperament of her calf – I still see the cold and clinical aspect that it takes two genes, one from each parent to create an offspring. What I really search and seek out via the net and information avenues are the “known dominant traits” of bovines. This is something that I really believe would be of benefit to all of us. If for argument’s sake, are uneven teats in a cow the physical result of: • a dominant gene? • Is it co-dominant? • Or is it recessive and should be monitored through generations to ensure it doesn’t appear again Oh so many questions…………….. *S* Cheers Donna
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Post by tarsallat on May 29, 2013 9:21:34 GMT -5
I think why we have these faults now in Dexter cattle, such as flat feet , poor udder construction, high tail heads, advanced tail heads, is that we Dexter breeders (meaning most breeders in the early years up until more recent times) did have blinkers on, we didn't see these faults as we were concentrating on other traits such as small size, cuteness, docility and saleability etc. As we have become educated in conformation and function we are now trying to correct what we have ignored for years. Cattle with flat feet nor poor udders would never have survived in Ireland, they would bog in the mud of the bogs, flat feet would end up pixie feet, and unsupported udders would be dragging in the mud, ending up with mastitis.
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Post by Deleted on May 29, 2013 16:33:29 GMT -5
So true Genebo. While there are a couple of Dexters here and there, within Australia, whose feet could do with some assistance and whose udders........well are not 100% perfect, generally from what I have seen the Dexters here are structurely well balanced, calm and they "look" like dexters. Australia seems to have a well-balanced genetic pool - with only the very odd exception, Im sure. Maybe thats why I find it a little difficult at times on this forum to truly understand that how it is in Australia, may not be what it is in other countries. I know we are darn fortunate and so very thankful to those aussie dexter breeders who came before us newbies in so many different ways. To name just one, they had the insight to DNA parent verify - its been done for nearly 40 years for registration purposes. I think I will need to 'think' more when making comments here as this forum is so very international Which is its most appealing aspect *S*
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Post by tarsallat on May 30, 2013 6:35:50 GMT -5
Hey Genebo, not saying Dexter breeders don't care for or love their animals, just that some may not have selected for improving on conformation traits, they have placed more importance on other traits such as size and temperament. Just have to look at some of the photos on this forum to see these faults, flat feet, many with poor udder contruction, high tail heads. I see photos with good teat size shape and hanging plumb, but with udders that have weak fore attachment, low and narrow rear attachment, uneven quarters, weak medial suspensory ligaments, not built for the test of time. Udders like this have no support and after a few calves will hang low and can easily be stood on when the cow gets up resulting in torn teats and quarters. Have a look at the English cows, they seem to have better udders, some outstanding. Flat feet end up with long toes, especially when kept in for winter or on soft muddy ground which affects walking when they get bad enough.
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Post by Deleted on May 30, 2013 16:49:05 GMT -5
What we humans expect in other mammals and yet we are the most genetically weak of all ........................
If I was pregnant every year with only a (possible) 3 mth rest before having to feed the next one, year after year - gees my "udder" would be hanging too with chances of my stepping on 'it'
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Post by midhilldexters on May 30, 2013 20:26:20 GMT -5
Gene, I've seen plenty of cows with a high tail set, but they don't all have that dip, so how are we to know that it won't be an issue later on in life for the animal. It's a conformation fault, it's also ugly , like sloppy sheaths. When people don't know to look for that stuff they don't, and so it goes on being promoted unknowingly by breeders. Before you know it, it's the norm.
Carol K
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Post by midhilldexters on May 30, 2013 21:51:00 GMT -5
Gene, that's the problem I don't know what harm may be caused but I would like to know, heck it may cause nothing. I'd just like the answer.
I've never seen a list but if you come across one let us all know.
It's got nothing to do with anyone loving their cows, love all of mine, the good the bad and the ugly, it's about wanting to know why certain traits happen. It would seem none of us know for sure on this one, which is kind of scary don't you think? Hopefully someone will come up with an answer and I can cross it off my dexter bucket list of things to learn about.
Carol K
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Post by tarsallat on May 31, 2013 0:08:10 GMT -5
hey carol k, I'll answer your question but only with what I think, just my opinion. I think the dip is caused by a high sacrum, not a high tail head, so an animal with a high tail head doesn't necessarily have the dip, but if it has a high sacrum as well then the dip appears accentuated. also believe that a high sacrum, even though it looks ugly is an aesthetic fault, not a functional one, opposite to what a high tail head is. Yes, some people do like high tail heads , more room for calving, but if a cow has the right angle from hook to pin it doesn't need room for the calf, it already has plenty. however, a high tail head can fracture when mounted by the bull or another heavy cow, then you have trouble. that is why high tail heads are a productive fault because of the risk of injury. tarsallat
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Post by midhilldexters on May 31, 2013 5:48:59 GMT -5
Tarsallat, that's a good thought. However if its the same as in horses don't they get some sort of back pain from the sacroiliac joint which can cause some lameness? If so, then I would think that more of a functional fault? Anatomy is interesting.
Carol K
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Post by cddexter on May 31, 2013 14:49:40 GMT -5
Breeds and breed societies were first established specifically to produce animals that had consistent traits, both functional and yield.
The advantage was a form of guarantee that offspring would have a stronger resemblance to their parents. This guarantee was seen as desirable because man, as a species, wanted to control the quality and quantity of input to the human food chain. For two reasons: income and food quality (which soon equated back to income).
I don't think I've ever seen anyone suggest we should be culling for minor or single traits (unless it's Judy suggesting culling on temperament from Lucifer descendants), so why has this type of culling been brought up as though it's a serious consideration?
I can see those who consider Dexters to be petstock could easily compare them to cats and dogs. But for the rest of us, who are trying to breed functional livestock with a purpose other than looking cute in the field, the comparison is odious.
I think anyone who truly understands the function of a breeder of registered livestock will always try to 'improve' the quality of their animals...good udder suspension vs. poor, good feet vs. poor, etc., all done without 'culling' but by selecting bulls from superior cows to use back across those less superior females to create the next generation.
Are we really seriously suggesting it's desirable to promote the breeding of animals with faults over the breeding of animals with better traits. (Better in this case being those traits that increase the chances of longevity and higher yield without sacrificing function.) Any chance here that we are being led down the let's-get'm-all-riled-up path?
cheers, c.
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Post by karenp on May 31, 2013 15:07:15 GMT -5
tarsallat, thanks for the explanation on the high tail head issue, I wasn't sure why it would matter other than show animals. Udders, feet and temperment are easy enough to understand. If anyone brings up other faults, could they also explain how if effects function for those of us who are new at this.
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Post by Deleted on May 31, 2013 16:02:47 GMT -5
As the owner of said animal who raised this dip and high tail set discussion, I think it has been great that someone has raised it for us. Honestly, we didn't see it, but are watching the little man who is now a few weeks off 6 mths. We want to breed dexters who are straight in the back with tail set level with the spine: this is stated in the breed standard. Because we have the sire and dam, we will be watching out for this trait in their offspring now. But we won't cull because of it. It is just another "point of consideration" when breeding. So we are very grateful for this point being raised.
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Post by tarsallat on May 31, 2013 23:37:37 GMT -5
Hey Carole K, maybe cows and horses structurally are different? Their angles are so that could be why? Horses pelvic structure and angles look very different to a cows. Don't know if that is it. Have seen a limosin heifer (friends) that had damaged her sacrum at breeding. She progressively got worse till she could hardly walk. They butchered her, didn't think she would manage calving. Horses don't get foaling paralysis do they? If not, then I'm guessing that their structure must be different. Showing is a beauty contest. Judging on aesthetic traits mostly, those beautiful level rumps, hooks and pins all in a line, tail flowing straight off the spine, with beautiful wide heads and lovely wide muscley forequarters. A calving nightmare. They are artificially fed up and are fat, prepared to within an inch of their life with grooming clipping etc, and we are supposed to believe that they are ordinary productive farm animals, straight from the farm. I think not! A cow surviving out on pasture, breeding calves year after year and rearing those calves with minimal human intervention to make those calves survive and thrive, needs good production traits, which as breeders we should select for at each generation. If I had 2 heifers similar, one with a high tail head or flat feet, and I only wanted to keep one, I know which one I would keep.
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