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Post by karenp on Feb 21, 2014 6:51:57 GMT -5
I spend time on the KFC board, all they talk about are how psycho bulls are (mostly Jerseys) on here I hear about Brenn and Midas and Mike who all sound wonderful. Is there another side of the coin? I'm planning for the future and would like to hear the negative side of keeping a Dexter bull other than the expense.
Lower Delaware
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Post by lakeportfarms on Feb 21, 2014 7:46:38 GMT -5
The nuts are out there but not as prevalent as the dairy breeds and most meat breeds. Dexter bulls being smaller in size helps a lot. I'd say its part nature and part nurture that makes a bull good or bad. The ideal situation is to have one that has both sides of the equation done right. For example, most of Mike's calves are quite good, but we have one cow who has produced nothing but snots out of him. Something about the combination. She is a very friendly girl, I can easily walk up to her in the pasture and put a halter on her, but her calves out of Mike, watch out! Needless to say we don't retain bulls out of her for breeding, and fortunately that's all she's had up until the last calf, a yearling heifer now. We'll see how she turns out eventually but it's not looking good so far. I won't be selling her to anybody for sure.
From the nurture side you want a bull that has been raised to have a "couldn't care less" attitude. You don't want strong emotions on his part on anything except his one task, and that is breeding his girls when the time comes. And during those times you stay out and away from him. I don't want a bull to come RUNNING for food (walking is fine), just as I don't want a bull that runs away from me if I approach him calmly. I like a bull that will run from me if I quickly raise my hands to frighten him. I don't like a bull to approach me with anything more than simple curiosity, and I want him to stop when he gets to my personal space. From a temperament standpoint, anything other than that is beefed out. I personally can take a few shortcomings (like too friendly) IF I don't think they're excessive or potentially dangerous, but you always keep your head about you and eyes on him.
When you are starting out with your first bull, you should look for those attributes. All the other things that make up a good bull are just a bonus until you have had the experience and are more comfortable with being around them. If you are only breeding a few Dexters/year, it's just not worth risking your well being just to "improve your udders" etc...with a less than perfect temperament bull.
Hope I didn't scare you, because a nice bull is probably our favorite Dexter to have on the farm as you have probably guessed.
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Post by Fran on Feb 21, 2014 10:33:03 GMT -5
I had heard all the talk about the friendly Dexter bulls and cows. We got our first bred cow and a young bull. He was 4 mos. when we brought him home. He was NEVER friendly. We could halter him when we needed to (later that required risking being tossed in the air) but he was not friendly. He was always pawing the ground "at" you and bawling at you - this was mostly directed at my husband. I actually just ignored it because the guy we got him from, his bull was a super laid back dude, and I never "thought" I should be afraid or anything. Yes, I was EXTREMELY naive!!!! Well, one day he got me and what a wake-up call that was! He was sold to a processor. His calves are great. Very friendly and easy to work with except for one and she's just stand-offish. His only bull calf was steered and sold. It will be interesting to see how she does when she has her first calf (should be this coming Sept/Oct). We now have a new bull, will be 2 years old this May. He is fairly friendly and laid-back. A little aggressive at feeding but not bad. If I yell, he will stop and back up. I do NOT ever mess with his face or head. I will scratch under his chin/neck area or on his back/rump areas. I do feed him treats sometimes, but only when I want to. If he comes up looking for them, he doesn't get them. That's only because I don't want him coming to me every time I go into the pasture. I can put a halter on him in the pasture if I have a treat in hand. He walks fine on a lead. I do plan to have the vet put a nose ring in sometime during the next few months (per some recommendations from here) - just as added insurance. Oh yeah, if I move him to a different pasture with different girls in it, I make sure to stand back out of the way!! I'm not trying to scare you off of owning a bull - just don't want you to be as naive as I was... And I now never allow anyone other than me or my husband in the pasture with the bull. Someday that may change but not until that memory dims somewhat -- or I go "steal" Brenn away from Gene...hehehehe
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Post by copperhead on Feb 21, 2014 13:36:24 GMT -5
A bull, is a bull, just as a stud or a ram, any breeding male needs to be respected. Having said that, I have had some wonderful bulls, they would stay on their side of the feeder, didn't want to be hand fed and kept a respectful distance from me. I will not have one who shakes his head at me or paws the ground when we are out there. I have had Brahma bulls, angus and Shorthorn and always expected the same from them as the Dexters. You might consider getting a 3 or 4 year old bull that the people can tell you about his disposition instead of trying to raise a calf to be what you want. There are a lot of good, respectful bulls out there. I have always kept a bull, they take care of business and I don't have to worry about a cow being bred, lots easier. I only had one who would jump a fence, so I put him in the freezer, he didn't jump out of there,
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Post by karenp on Feb 21, 2014 19:22:42 GMT -5
I am in the process of getting my ducks in a row to AI Joy. The off-spring is destined for freezer camp. Pondering the idea, if she has a bull calf leaving him intact and letting him breed her back when he is old enough. Since, I would be feeding him anyway it wouldn't really be an extra expense to keep him. Joy and Brenn don't seem to share a lot of common ancestors and again we are looking at a something that would be raised for beef. Thoughts? Lower Delaware
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zephyrhillsusan
member
Caught Dexteritis in Dec. 2009. Member of this forum since Oct. 2013.
Posts: 1,502
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Post by zephyrhillsusan on Feb 21, 2014 19:30:01 GMT -5
I read those posts on KFC after we had paid half of our new bull calf. It made me wonder if I'd made a horrible mistake, but no, we didn't. I talked to a friend who raises Dexters and has had several bulls, at present has a mature bull and a calf. She said that the vocal anti-bull people on KFC have been very strongly influenced because they mostly have Jerseys, and Jersey bulls have the highest testosterone levels of all breeds--and equally bad temperaments and reputations. She doesn't agree with them, but chooses not to get into discussions, which might be one reason why the discussions on that board are very one-sided. So don't be discouraged by those comments. I'm so glad we got our bull. He has a really great temperament and is very respectful of us.
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Post by kansasdexters on Feb 21, 2014 21:31:29 GMT -5
It really isn't all that difficult to select for a bull that has good temperament. We've been breeding and calving Dexter cattle for the past 9 years and it doesn't take long for me to pick out the bull calf that has "herd sire" potential. We spend time with our cattle every day and we have a large herd (70+ head of cattle). The bull calves with the best temperament and conformation are easy to identify, and once we decide we have one with exceptional herd sire potential, we give him extra attention and handling (halter training, frequent grooming, trailer travel). Since we produce 10 to 15 bull calves each year and only keep one (or none) as a prospective herd sire, we only keep a bull calf that expresses very desirable breed traits, including docile temperament, and that is out of a "bull mother" quality cow.
Patti
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Post by wagradexters on Feb 22, 2014 1:38:22 GMT -5
According to various sites on-line, temperament is not highly heritable. It is said to be moderately heritable and judging from experience I reckon that is a generous estimate. Bulls (and females) from the same parents can be totally different temperamentally, and the same applies to nurture. Twenty youngsters by the same sire, from related females, of the same age and with the same management can have a wide range of temperaments. We do have (like Patti says) selected "bull mothers", but that does not guarantee every male calf from those cows will be kept as a bull. I will add though that while we have had the occasional animal who had to be reminded to go slowly into our personal space, we have never had any Dexter have a go at us, male or female.
We don't run bulls with freshly calved cows to avoid the possibility of infection, besides which the uterus and the hormones should be given a proper chance to recover. Margaret
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Post by wagradexters on Feb 22, 2014 23:49:33 GMT -5
Come on Gene, that's not fair. How come anybody that disagrees with you has to have facts while you youself admit to only having suppositions? Perhaps you really meant to say that others should state their "observations" or "theories"? Margaret
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Post by kansasdexters on Feb 23, 2014 15:43:45 GMT -5
If I had an animal (bull or cow) that suddenly changed personality, or "snapped", I would be looking at their environment and evaluating their stress level and diet very closely. Ergot poisoning is cumulative and if the animal is consuming enough contaminated forage or grain, it can suddenly undergo a personality change and exhibit aggressive behavior. Certain animals can be more susceptible than others, depending on their consumption and preferences. Ergot can infest pastures as well as grains. Here is a link: www1.agric.gov.ab.ca/$department/newslett.nsf/all/agnw21376Another thing to consider is internal injury, or chronic infection. We purchased a 20-month old Dexter steer from another breeder several years ago and put that steer on good grass pasture for 3 months. It gained only 10 pounds during that time, and it was the most nervous and aggressive Dexter that I've ever dealt with. When it was processed, the liver was rejected by the inspector because it was abscessed. That animal was probably in pain most of the time, and that may explain its abnormally aggressive behavior. A brain tumor can also affect an animal's personality, once it reaches a certain size, and the change can be sudden and dramatic. So there are several potential reasons for a Dexter cow or bull (or any breed of cow or bull), to have a dramatic personality change -- and its ancestral genetics aren't the reason behind that change. Patti
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Post by cddexter on Feb 23, 2014 17:10:52 GMT -5
Thanks. At least there are some of us who see through the pseudo-science, 'caring' posts.
I do know of two APPARENTLY inherited temperament issues. I don't think it's a 'mean' Gene, I'm leaning toward a hormone imbalance? One came from mating of one particular bull with one particular cow and I know of several offspring that had temperament issues, but only when those two were mated. Bred to or by anyone else, there was no problem. If genetic, that made it sound recessive, but at least one of those problem offspring used to pass it on occasionally, which would make it dominant...that's what made me think of hormones. There are also things like oxy-amino acids that can have an effect on temperament (timid-mild vs. bold /aggressive). In another case, cow was a dream, heifer calf was a little leery, but all her offspring had major flight zone issues. One of the bull calf grandsons, in a large field, would go on the attack if anyone came in the field. This is a major territorial issue, or a major sense of threat, when the person was still 300 feet away.
I have a friend whose husband has just been diagnosed with some sort of genetic glitch, which multiplies from one generation to the next, and is passed on by the female, expressed by the male. His g'dad had a form of palsy at 70, husband is already almost wheelchair bound at 50, their son got the gene, too, and is shaking and having problems at only 30. Eventually, children become non-viable, and so it is ultimately self-destructive. Who'd have thought...
I heard of several Dexter bulls, with no Jersey in them (Gene...) when I was in England, who developed temperament issues, one of which killed the owner. I had a Woodmagic breeding bull here who was a pussycat. One day, around 8 years, instead of just lying there and taking cookies from my hand, he suddenly got up, and faced me, head down. He pivoted to keep me always directly in front of him while I was in the field. After that, I did chores on the tractor...it only took a few days to get to the point where he challenged the tractor: he was on the truck and hamburger within two days.. So, it doesn't pay to generalize. As with anything, there are always the occasional exception. The trick is to be responsible, and eat anything that seems to be questionable, and only keep or sell those that exhibit the characteristics we are promoting.
Thanks, patti, for the suggestions. cheers, c.
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Post by kansasdexters on Feb 23, 2014 18:20:12 GMT -5
Genebo,
I don't think it's fair to make broad statements against any breed of livestock. I've known a very sweet-natured mature (6-year old) Jersey bull, so I know that not all Jersey bulls are mean or highly aggressive. Typically, most dairy bulls aren't kept as breeding stock for long, because they are collected for AI (if they have economically desirable genetics for the breed) and then slaughtered before 30 months of age. So there isn't much (if any) information available for fully mature or aged dairy bulls and their behavior.
Most dairy bulls aren't raised on their dams, they are typically hand raised by people. That's not the best way to bring up a bull that will respect people because such animals usually don't distinguish people differently from their bovine herd mates. Once a hand raised bull becomes sexually mature, he becomes dangerous to people when he starts to consider them as rivals or as lower ranking herd mates.
I believe it's very unwise to draw conclusions based on hearsay and rumors. I've realized over the years that people behaving badly, or acting in ignorance, are usually the cause and the reason for animals behaving badly. Weaning a bull calf, that is intended for use as a herd sire, at the young age of 3 or 4 months, is a prime example of this. I believe that a prospective herd sire should be raised by his dam until he is at least 7 or 8 months of age before he is weaned. If she is a good "bull mother", she will help teach him proper manners and respect towards people. Skipping this step in his early development can be very detrimental and result in abnormal and undesirable behaviors.
Patti
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zephyrhillsusan
member
Caught Dexteritis in Dec. 2009. Member of this forum since Oct. 2013.
Posts: 1,502
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Post by zephyrhillsusan on Feb 23, 2014 21:36:24 GMT -5
To go back to the original question which related to what people on the KFC board say about bulls, I've read a lot of those posts. The people who do keep bulls said almost unanimously to only keep a dam-raised bull because the typical bottle-raised dairy bull is a lethal weapon (my expression, not theirs). That is what Patti is saying.
I have heard that Jersey bulls have the highest levels of testosterone of any bulls; does anyone know if this is true? I would think that the way we tend to breed Dexter bulls would contribute to them being nice bulls. By that I mean that many people use the same bull for some time and know what their bull is producing temperament-wise. On the other hand I see a lot of KFC people saying they keep one of their bull calves just long enough to breed the cows, then butcher him. They have bred all their cows (and seriously line-bred, if I'm understanding them) to a bull without keeping him long enough to know if he'd be a nice bull or a mean one. Then apparently one of HIS offspring repeats it the next year. There could be an awful lot of mean bull genetics passed on that way, assuming genetics are a factor. Contrast this to the Dexter breeders who keep a potential herd sire long enough to see how he's shaping up before they breed him, then maybe breed him to just a few cows or heifers and see what they get. Just my musings on the subject . . .
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Post by kansasdexters on Feb 24, 2014 2:10:31 GMT -5
Genebo, Please take a look at the following link: www.billingsfarm.org/billings_farm/oxen.htmlThe Billings Farm, in Vermont, has trained three sets of Jersey oxen. Here's a YouTube video of logging with a pair of Jersey oxen: www.youtube.com/watch?v=_lG0eNeDN0sHere's a YouTube video of driving lines with a pair of Holstein X Chianina crossbred, 3-year old oxen (they look like tall Dexters): www.youtube.com/watch?v=C4LGVTuR9HQ Is there really any doubt that testosterone level is the primary driver of a bull's aggressive behaviors? It isn't "meanness", it's normal for an intact and masculine male to display some territorial behaviors as he matures. This is true with any breed, including the Dexter breed. If a bull senses danger or competition, then he reacts according to his position in the herd, and the extent of that reaction is primarily driven by hormones. If a bull perceives people to be his subordinates, then he will react to them as such. That's why it's so important to understand proper handling, herd mentality, and body language when raising, training, and keeping a bull (no matter how sweet and friendly he appears to be). Patti
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Post by Fran on Feb 24, 2014 8:40:32 GMT -5
I don't know that there was anything in Clyde's background to make anyone think he might grow up to be mean. He was weaned early (3 or 4 months) and that might be it according to some posts that I've read. We brought him home to our farm when he was 4 mos. old. Once he came to our farm, it was only him, the bred heifer, and another heifer that we had purchased. So he didn't really have any "cows" to teach him manners. He was already acting mean at that time. We were just dumb and didn't recognize it as being dangerous at that time. He was not even 2 when he was sold to the processor. His offspring are NOT that way. One of them is a little stand-offish but not mean. She comes up and takes treats out of my hand, and I can get a halter on her. Another of his offspring, I could probably ride like a horse. I can do anything to her. I milked her (just to see if she would let me) while she was tied to a gate, I'm constantly messing with her and she could care less. He had 4 offspring (3 heifers and 1 bull calf). The bull calf was steered and sold (he was not registered). I still have all 3 of his living offspring. I must say that I've learned a lot since then... Not that I don't have a long way to go, just a little smarter than I used to be.
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