Two-tier Dexter Heights

[outofthebox]

Our Dexter Standard has height ranges "edited"  at: Cows: 97-107cm (38.2-42.1in) Bulls: 102-112cm (40.2-44.1in)


If the chondro carrier has a skeletal reduction of approx 20% or Cows: up to 14cm (5.5in) & Bulls up to 20cm (8in)

Then could it be determined chondro carrier height ratios around: Cows 78-86cm (30.7-33.9in) & Bulls 82-90cm (32.3-35.4in)


Thoughts from those who breed chondro carriers and how they assess over / under heights???

[kansasdexters]

outofthebox,

Those are height ranges (minimum to maximum), not ratios. The height ranges used in the guidelines (or "standards") for Dexter cattle were developed around the chondro-carrier. The problem is that chondro-carriers produce both non-carrier and carrier offspring and the non-carrier offspring (of carriers within the desired height range) are typically taller than the desired height range at maturity. For bulls, mature size isn't reached until about 5 years of age and not many Dexter bulls get to live that long, so the available data on Dexter bulls (carrier and non-carrier) is rather sparse.

Patti

[outofthebox]

Hi Patti

So heights reflected in the Standards are ‘generally’ based on chondro-carriers and not non-carrier?

I am trying to put into place a self-assessment plan and I know height has and still is an issue for many.

[outofthebox]

Sorry Patti it has taken a cup of coffee to register what you meant.

So the min height is for carriers and the max height is for non-carriers?

The difference between the two 'stated' heights is only 10cm (about 4in) less than the 20% 'shrinkage’.
I read somewhere that the chondro carrier can be affected height wise: females around 14cm (5.5in) and males up to 20.3cm (8in).

Mmmmmm

[cddexter]

Donna: the first standard was set in England, years ago. At the time only the dwarf was considered the 'real' dexter. The heights were min and max for DWARFS. Nons didn't count. That's why so many nons are considered 'too tall'. I've been fighting this for almost 30 years. I think, to be fair, we need ONE standard for ONE type. Then the other type would be 4-5 inches taller (or smaller) in cows, and 6-8 inches taller (or smaller) in bulls. Otherwise one is trying to compare apples and oranges.

All the other assns took their lead from England.

If you take a 42" non-dwarf cow, then it's dwarf equivalent will only be 36". If you take a 39 or 40" non-dwarf cow (and there are quie a few of those out there), the dwarf equivalent would only be 34 or 35" tall: this is considered TOO small. By the same token, a 40" to 42" dward (and there are lots of those out there, too) would mean the non-dwarf counterpart would be 45 to 47" tall (and we all know there are lots of those, too), which are considered TOO tall.

In fact, humans have created a 'standard' that it is impossible for the cattle to meet. Yet, there is HUGE resistance to fixing this, the common wail being if we make the necessary change, we are increasing the height of the breed. This obviously is not the case, we are simply acknowledging reality, but no one seems to be willing to go there.

Good luck with your numbers. Cheers, carol D.

[outofthebox]

Carol D can you tell me what the first Dexter standard stated for height?

And you wouldn’t happen to know what the Kerry standard had stated for height during this same period?

I just did a quick search and couldn’t find any reference to the early Standard but found it interesting the UK breed society website has made reference to female hieghts of 96-111cm in their breed standard and 92-107 within a description on the breed.

[legendrockranch]

Apr 14, 2014 21:41:18 GMT -5 cddexter said:

I've been fighting this for almost 30 years. I think, to be fair, we need ONE standard for ONE type. Then the other type would be 4-5 inches taller (or smaller) in cows, and 6-8 inches taller (or smaller) in bulls. Otherwise one is trying to compare apples and oranges.

c, There have been several of us that also have been tying two have 2 standards, one for the carriers and one for the non-carriers. It was talked about between several members at one of the AGMs several years back.
It seems to go nowhere, which is a shame because as you said "Otherwise one is trying to compare apples and oranges".

Barb

[kansasdexters]

outofthebox,

Here is a link to the first herdbook of the American Kerry and Dexter Cattle Club (give it time to load, it is a big file):
www.dextercattle.org/DexterArchive/herdbooks/1921HerdBook.pdf

On pages 19-20, you will find the description of the Kerry. The preferred size is defined as "when in breeding condition the bull should not weigh over one thousand pounds nor the cow over nine-hundred pounds."

On page 23, you will find the description of the Dexter. The preferred size is defined as "in mature form the standard weights are nine-hundred pounds as a maximum for the bull and eight-hundred pounds for the cow when in breeding condition."

The first size guidelines (or "standards") for both of these breeds were based on weight, and not on height. This didn't change for many decades.

In 1982, at the Annual Meeting of the American Dexter Cattle Association, a new "Description and Standards for the Dexter Bull" was adopted by the membership, based on the report of a Standards Committee chaired by Don Piehota (P-Bar herd). This new standard set the following size criteria for the Dexter Bull:

Weight - Bulls at three years old and over should not exceed 1,000 lbs. live weight.

Height - Bulls should not exceed more than 44 inches in height nor stand less than 38 inches in height at the shoulder, at three years of age.

Subsequently, the ADCA Standards Committee recommended a "Description and Standards for the Dexter Cow" which was approved and adopted at the 1983 ADCA Annual Meeting. The new standard set the following size criteria for the Dexter Cow:

Weight - Cows at three years old and over should not exceed 750 lbs. live weight.

Height - Mature cows should not exceed 42 inches in height nor stand less than 36 inches in height at the shoulder.


So that's the long and short of it (tongue in cheek) on the "historical" size definitions. The size guidelines have since been modified in more recent years. The Purebred Dexter Cattle Association (PDCA) now uses frame score to define a preferred size standard, instead of shoulder height or weight. The Dexter Cattle Society now uses hip height instead of shoulder height (as do most other breed associations): www.dextercattle.co.uk/breed-info/breed-standard/


Patti

[cddexter]

Donna and Barb:

The only really serious disagreement I've had with Patti, and she may not even be aware of it, was at the ADCA AGM in Colorado about 7-8 years ago.

I did a presentation on why we have this variation in height, and had the entire room, including Directors, onside about going to a double standard. There was even a motion about it, and then Patti, with her Engineering background, killed the whole thing with one sentence. We didn't have actual stientifically collected statistics to prove the numbers we chose, therefore it wouldn't be valid.

Patti was working on the classification system, so it was agreed that the Board would wait until a meaningful number of heights could be collected and those would be used. Trouble was, the early stats didn't include chondro, so any heights were useless.

There had been one US study back around 1990 that showed the average height of dwarfs (pre-testing) was 39" and the average height of non-dwarfs (pre-testing) was 43". Because that was done on visual alone, it couldn't be trusted. Those of us who'd seen hundreds and even thousands of Dexters couldn't be trusted.

And where are we today? Nowhere. Unprintable thoughts? You bet!

Keep at it, Barb, just maybe sometime in the next 20 years, someone will see the light.

not so cheerful, c.

[legendrockranch]

Apr 15, 2014 14:13:27 GMT -5 cddexter said:

The only really serious disagreement I've had with Patti, and she may not even be aware of it, was at the ADCA AGM in Colorado about 7-8 years ago.

Patti was working on the classification system, so it was agreed that the Board would wait until a meaningful number of heights could be collected and those would be used.

Well....the AGM where several of us were discussing having 2 different height standards/guidelines was in Missouri, a few years before the AGM in Colorado. Patti that was in disagreement with it at that time. Sorry to say I can't remember her reasons why. More than likely they were similar to the reasons you gave c.

I'm sure she will chime in and give us her thoughts on this now.

Barb

[outofthebox]

I cant thank you enough for the link to the herdbook. Its printing off as I type.

The weights are a fantastic help. During the Easter break ‘the bloke’ intends to install the scales, and now I can see their potential value.

I am collating the Standards from the various associations and hopefully we will come up with a balance for our self-assessment.

[kansasdexters]

Carol & Barb,

The reason that I didn't support the idea of a two-tier height standard back in 2005-2006, was because there wasn't sufficient information properly documented to define such a standard with. The Chondrodysplasia test only became available in 2003 and most animals had not been tested. Hip height measurements had not been made yet and there was no one collecting and compiling that information. So we launched the Hip Height study (back in 2006) and asked the membership to participate in this. Participation was marginal, even from the ADCA Board of Directors and officers at the time.

The other issue that we had to contend with back then was the group of breeders that wanted to exclude chondrodysplasia-carriers from registration. Some breeders didn't want to share information because they were afraid their herd would be targeted by the "anti-chondro" faction. It was a political hot potato.

What I personally wanted to see happen was the recognition by Dexter breeders that a single gene significantly affected the height of Dexter cattle and that a "standard" size range for females and males should account for that natural variation within the breed. Rather than define the preferred size range (minimum to maximum) as a 6-inch interval, which was arbitrary and done back in 1982-1983, a better approach might be to use a preferred size range (minimum to maximum) of 8-inches or even 10-inches, based on the results of a nation-wide hip height study. In other words, have one standard "preferred" height range for females and one standard "preferred" height range for males that accounted for the known variation that has always existed in the breed due to the presence or absence of the Chondrodysplasia gene.

At the AGM in Colorado in 2007, the membership approved the draft ADCA Classification Program. Here is a link to that draft:

www.kansasdexters.com/ADCA%20CDP/ADCA_Classification_Program_Document.html


My primary concern about developing a two-tiered system, with separate standards for Chondro-carriers and Non-carriers, was that it might drive an even greater wedge between the Dexter breeders that wanted to keep breeding and registering "traditional" chondro-carrier Dexters and the breeders that were trying to eliminate chondro-carriers completely from the breed by making them ineligible for registration. A two-tiered system would not have been accepted by the ADCA membership back then and I still believe that it wouldn't be acceptable now, for the exact same reasons. If we are to be considered "one breed", the Dexter breed, then we should have "one breed standard", and not separate standards for dwarves and non-dwarves. The size standard should be such that it accounts for the natural variation that is the norm for the Dexter breed.

Patti

[outofthebox]

Apr 15, 2014 17:45:00 GMT -5 kansasdexters said:

In other words, have one standard "preferred" height range for females and one standard "preferred" height range for males that accounted for the known variation that has always existed in the breed due to the presence or absence of the Chondrodysplasia gene.

With this approach there will still be ‘chondro-carriers can throw “above height: too tall” non-carriers’ comment.
IMO a result of ‘oversized’ chondro-carriers’ non-carrier progeny being 20% taller.

Apr 15, 2014 17:45:00 GMT -5 kansasdexters said:

My primary concern about developing a two-tiered system, with separate standards for Chondro-carriers and Non-carriers, was that it might drive an even greater wedge between the Dexter breeders.

And yet I clearly see what you mean with a two-tier system.

No wonder it has been an ongoing discussion.

[cddexter]

As Donna says, we still have the same issue of animals that will always fall outside the 'standard' as long as the two types are considered in one grouping. I thought the anti-dwarf faction had left the ADCA by that time....certainly there were both types at the CO meeting and all understood and agreed with the concept at that time. If I, or anyone else if they want to, put together the same presentation (which made it clear) and it was published in the Bulletin with a recommended height standard for carriers, but that non-carriers would be accepted at 5 or 6 inches taller, and a thing from the Directors asking for a mail in vote which could be taken to the upcoming AGM, would that work?

It would give the BoD an indication of opinion, anyway. cheers, c.

[legendrockranch]

Patti, while I understand what you are saying, I do disagree. Firstly even though we are one breed we can not overlook the fact that our breed is composed of two types and two sizes. Nothing to hide, don't want to get ride of anything it's just what it is. What's even more confusing to some is that the ADCA guidelines which are stated below:

The ideal three year old Dexter bull measures 38 to 44 inches at the shoulder and weighs less than 1000 pounds. The ideal three year old Dexter cow measures between 36 to 42 inches at the shoulder, and weighs less than 750 pounds. There are two varieties of Dexters, short legged and long legged. Milk and beef production and other characteristics are generally the same for both types"

Your classification for the ADCA Dexter breed is:

BULLS: Typical range in height is between 36 inches and 50 inches; however, the preferred height for all mature (3+ years old) males is between 40 inches and 44 inches, measured at the hip.
COWS: Typical range in height is between 34 inches and 46 inches; however, the preferred height for all mature (3+ years old) females is between 38 inches and 42 inches, measured at the hip.

There is no real "guidelines" even for one type of Dexter, heights are all over the place. How do you explain to a new owner that a bull who is 46+ tall is perfectly fine without going into the "whole" explaination of what chondrodysplasia is or vise versa with two small of a Dexter.

If the ADCA wants to have one height range than at least they should explain the "WHYS of the difference in range". In my opinion.
With something like what c just explained.

Barb