Test required for red, chondro, pha, why not polled?

[lakeportfarms]

It is required for chondro, PHA, and red (unless both parents are registered as red), so since there is now a test for polled Dexters, shouldn't it now be a requirement to have a test report from Texas or UCDavis to register a Dexter as polled?  Two heterozygous polled Dexters can create a horned calf, for example.  I can take my dehorning iron at a few days old and do a good enough job on those tiny horn buds so that it is virtually impossible to tell if the calf was horned or not by most anybody, especially somebody without much experience.

I have talked to more than a few people who believe that a polled Dexter will make 100% polled calves, and they never even knew that there is a good chance that they will have horned calves.  Not to mention that some think that our dehorned Dexters are "polled".  That could really turn off purchasers that think they're getting a polled animal that a year or two later produces a horned calf, even if bred to a polled bull.  

Now if they don't want a horned animal, they are forced to scramble to make arrangements to get their calf dehorned, and it may be that they discover it past the point where it is a relatively simple process.  I bring this up because even with all of our experience, we have just that situation now where we felt her head for the first month or two, but the horn buds didn't develop until much later, when we weren't paying attention and with long winter coats it wasn't visible, and now the horns are at the point where the iron won't work any longer.

So to help clear up the confusing terminology, and be consistent with the other situations that require a test, perhaps unless you have a tested homozygous polled bull, a test should be required to confirm the polled status?

[copperhead]

The only testing that is "required" is gynotyping of bull calves. We are not required to test for chondro or pha. If you want to registered you calf as red, then it has to be proven. All our testing is pretty much by choice, a lot of people wont test for anything, so it's up to the rest of us, to get the test we want before we buy. I talked to a lady yesterday who has some nice bull calves for sale, no testing. She said if someone wants give her a deposit, she will test. It really comes down to breeders being good shepards of our herd and making sure we have all the info a buyer needs to get an animal that doesn't come with a lot of surprises.
P.J.

[Dahdo]

I would very much like to see testing and reporting required for PHA and Chondro, but as copperhead pointed out, it is not now required by the ADCA at least. The animal's polled status may not be obvious to all, but surprises result in an inconvenience, not a dead calf. Even so, if that is what it took to get mandatory testing and reporting of PHA and Chondro, I would gladly support mandatory testing of polled status. I suspect this would drive most breeders who don't already do so, to do parentage verification on all animals so they could get obligate PHA, Chondro, and polled status.

[lakeportfarms]

Technically you're correct, it's not "required". However you must designate whether the animal is horned or polled at the time of registration. Testing IS required if you want to list the status of chondro, PHA, and of course red, or else the status is left blank (or the animal is listed as dun in the case of red).

So why not the default status of "horned", and if you would like to list the animal as polled you must either have obligate status or have it tested, just as with red, non-chondro, or non-PHA. That way it can be listed as homozygous or heterozygous on the registration paperwork, have an article just as with chondro and PHA on the possibilities of a horned calf out of polled parents, and buyers will have the information to make their decision and be fully informed.

[lakeportfarms]

Dave, then why the mandatory testing for red? Isn't is usually pretty clear now on the color? For example, I have a red cow out of two black parents. There is no doubt she is red, why should I have to test for red to list her as red? Her color is not life threatening.

[lakeportfarms]

By the way, I agree with you on the mandatory testing for the others, and also for parentage verification. It will also cause some folks to give their herd a much more critical look with respect to culling, etc...

This is her picture just after we got her...she looks pretty red to me, but she's recorded as dun on her registration. She has had a (tested) red heifer calf out of a red bull. Obviously she's horned.

[Dahdo]

I don't know Hans. If you have tested the sire and dam, and know that at least one does not carry dun, then maybe you should be able to get an obligate "red" on the calf. My understanding is that the ADCA thought it was important to differentiate on color and red and dun were not always obvious. Maybe that rule should be changed to reflect current testing capabilities?

[ssrdex]

Hi Hans, glad to hear from you. Guess you guys have been busy with the melt & I assume all those babies!? I'm not sure about a "requirement" for testing polled in order to have an obviously polled animal registered as such. I mean I can look at my 6 or 8 or 10 month old bull calf, for example, and noticing the absence of horns deduce that he is polled and report that to the registrar. You are absolutely right that I won't know by looking at him what he and a cow will produce together, whether he's homo or hetero polled. But he is still polled, right? I'm not sure I could tell red, frankly, though there may be those that could. Can anyone claim to tell red from dun visually without testing, obligate status aside? As an uninformed buyer I'd rather have to deal with a surprise horned animal than a genetic condition that would very seriously affect my breeding choices.

[ladena]

I just pulled hairs on a heifer yesterday for DNA with parentage verification, Extension and Milk Protein. She looks red to me but her dam is black from a red parent and a dun parent and her sire is red so I'm glad there is a test to eliminate the guess work. I'm also testing for milk because she could be A1/A2 or A2/A2. She is also polled but I did not test for polled because in my mind I was thinking that I know she is hetero so why test but I do see your point that in order to post an animal's PHA and Chondro status you have to have a test result to back it up. My thinking on the polled test was that it is mainly being used to prove whether an animal is homo or hetero early on without having to do a set amount of breedings.

[cddexter]

Good points.

Maybe a little background would help.

BITGOD (back in the good old days Americans knew the only colors were black and red, so when they got a non-black animal it was always automatically registered as red. There were duns from before the Woodmagic importation, but because they weren't black, they became 'red'. With the Woodmagics in the late 70's we got more duns but because of ignorance, we still registered them as red. Even 10 years later, we had a Director with duns who said, 'Well, they look red to me!' and refused to stop registering them as red. Even though the president of the South African Dexter Society (and a Dean of Agriculture at home) said they had reds in SA but he'd never seen this color before, everyone was still regisstering as red. Ditto Beryl Rutherford on her visit to North America couldn't get them to change. Partly ignorance (lack of knowledge), partly because red was very rare and it had a better selling price, partly because there was suspicion about dun not being a 'real' Dexter color.

Then Sandi Thomas got a red, and started breeding for it. If you go back and check ads, you'll see her advertising 'true reds' to separate them from the misregistered duns. .The registrar was complaining that people wrote her hateful letters if she tried to change their registrations to the right color (using ancestors as her guide). Some of you will have noticed the red/dun* designation in the herd books? This was the board's attempt to resolve the issue before there was a test. It ididn't help that Jim Johnson, as a 'grand old man of Dexters' said his dictionary said dun was a shade of red, so what was the problem...(sometimes logic doesn't interfere with decisions) . Can't remember the year but it was the AGM when Jerry Starnes died, somewhere around 1999, I think, and we had a test for red/black, that the BoD decided to require a test for red because so many people were still registering duns as red.

Of course, things got even funnier, as the registrar registered as dun any red animals where the owner refused to test to prove it, even tho' we all knew the animal really was red. Ahhh, the power of the registrr..

I think that most people now know the difference, maybe this is something you should bring up with your Regional Director for airing at the AGM?

* Again, lack of knowledge (ditto a dictionary, apparently) because the registrar spelled it dunn, after Dunn and Bradstreet, rather than dun, as in a pale brown color...and no one (else) seemed interested in fixing it

cheers, c.

[zephyrhillsusan]

So after all we've done and read about dun and red, the issue is still not done! This is a very interesting discussion, btw.

[cddexter]

Sheri: that's what obligate atatus is all about c.

[lakeportfarms]

I guess the polled comes to mind because I just "Barnes" dehorned a 8 month old heifer, out of a polled cow, who's head for all intents and purposes was polled as late as three months old, no evidence of horns at all. You still couldn't see the horns popping through her winter coat of hair. If I wasn't so behind, I would have registered her as polled.
Eventually in my case the evidence is there, but now we're relying upon the owner to correct the polled registration if the calf was registered in the first month or two.

When we purchased Mike a number of years ago, his registration said "polled". He was out of two horned parents, but whoever registered him considered a dehorned animal polled, and registered him as such. We corrected it on the transfer.

[legendrockranch]

As far as I'm concerned, and I'm sure you all know this by now. I am all for testing be it PHA, Chondro, polled, color (except red to red), parentage verification for both sire and dam etc.

Actually my testing requirements are minimal now, no testing for red because red to red breeds true, I will test an animal if I am selling one and the people want to know it carriers dun.
No PHA or chondro because my animals have been tested all non-carrier so they are free by obligate. Some of my animals I have to test for polled, it's just because my girls are a mix of homo/hetero polled and I want to know there status. There just might come a time when I won't have to test for that either.

Having animals tested for polled is good thing especially, especially since it will help the genetics and pedigree committee with any more problematic animals.

One other important note. Any animal that is obligate free animal MUST be sire and dam parentage verified. No butts about it.

I am all for testing.

Barb

[lakeportfarms]

Barb, of course the concern for all the testing is that it will be too expensive for the owners, etc..., but I think it's getting to the point where I'm thinking that there may be too many registrations of some Dexters that should perhaps be culled instead. Obviously a tough decision, but there is also a market for unregistered Dexters, as we all know. Requiring testing may be helpful to have owners look at their animals with a more critical eye, and decide not to invest in testing and sell them as "grade" Dexters instead for a lower price. The other option which I have proposed before is a premium registration level for those Dexters that have been genotyped and tested for the various things.

I'm not advocating this for our breed, but the American Highland Association as an example charges $60.00 to register a bull up to two years old, and $180 for bulls older than that. You can bet this discourages the registration of bulls that are less than what they should be. I think the ADCA fees are high enough, actually I'd like to see the steer registration fee drop to $5.00 if you're only interested in recording a calving by a cow, no certificate sent with it. However other than DNA typing of the Highland sires there isn't any other testing required for the breed, certainly not a polled test!