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Post by trdean on Sept 20, 2014 13:26:45 GMT -5
Hi all, I would love opinions on this bull calf. He is just 3 months old. I am trying to decide if I am gonna steer him or not...I like the muscling so far in his back end...and he has had very good growth. I am trying to build more of a beef style herd and am looking for good growth and muscling from my animals. Just not sure where I stand with this fellow. I have a few months before I make any moves with him, but wanted honest opinions. Thanks! Tim
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Post by ladena on Sept 20, 2014 14:23:56 GMT -5
The picture doesn't show up for me.
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Post by J & M Chambers on Sept 20, 2014 22:17:58 GMT -5
Hello Tim,
I appreciate your willingness to ask for frank input on your stock.
The first think to look at when considering whether a bull calf is worthy of consideration is the dam of the calf and her dam and any full siblings at a mature age. The dams of our bulls should be out of superior cows. Not just superior cows in our own herd but superior cows for the breed. So forget the picture of the bull calf for a bit and examine very hard and critically the dam of this fellow. Is his dam a cow such that anyone that would come to look at your herd seeking to purchase a female to improve their own herd would start trying to talk you out of? This "superiority" examination should include phenotypic, and genotypic traits to the extent known, and production outcomes to the extent they are known. If the old girl is not such an animal than it is very unlikely that this fellow should be a retained as a bull TO IMPROVE a herd or the BREED.
If by chance this cow is such a specimen then start to consider her other offspring as mature animals. Do these animals also approach the same standard that the dam did? If so, than now perhaps start considering if the calf is worthy to retain as a bull for a while.
Making a decision on a whether a bull calf should remain so for a while should be an ongoing process and a decision to keep a calf intact at 3 months or 6 months should have no bearing on the same decision, which should be revisited frequently, at 8 or 12 months.
Evaluating a single photo of a badly posed calf at 3 months is not anywhere near ideal but now with all the important stuff out of the way...what's my opinion on this fellow from a single photo...
In a nutshell: I hope he is out of a string of 4 classified 95 (EX) cows because I'm not seeing much in the photo. You indicate you are seeking to improve beefiness so I'll start there: I'm not seeing the beef side of this guy. I do not see the extension of fleshing(muscling) well down rear quarter that I would like to see. While the photo makes him appear to have decent length when you examine where that might be coming from it is certainly not in the loin area where I would want to see evidence for any animal not just a beef focused one. I'm not see the depth in either the heart girth or the flank that I would want to see in a calf being considered to be considered as a bull. To say more better posed photos and some additional angles would be prudent.
Nothing wrong with keeping him intact for now Tim and reevaluating again about every month. That's what we do.
Again I appreciate your opening up and asking for input. Will certainly help your herd and the breed improve.
Jeff
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Post by hollydzie on Sept 20, 2014 22:54:25 GMT -5
Nicely put Jeff
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Post by kansasdexters on Sept 21, 2014 8:42:57 GMT -5
Tim,
The questions that I always ask myself when trying to decide whether or not to steer a bull calf are these:
1. What outstanding desirable traits does he potentially bring to our herd? (make a list) 2. What potential weaknesses does he potentially bring to the herd? (make a list) 3. In what ways is he better than the bull that we're currently using as a herd sire? 4. Would we want to use him as a junior herd sire, to see what his calves are like? When we use a young bull as a junior herd sire, we only breed him to a few females during his first breeding season. If he produces well, then he stays a bull; otherwise he is processed for beef before he is 30 months old.
Every year we produce between 10 and 15 bull calves. Out of this calf group, there may be one or two outstanding calves that are selected to remain intact, and the rest are castrated. Some years, all of them are castrated, in order to meet customer demand for our high quality, grass-finished Dexter beef.
If you are wanting to gain experience producing high quality Dexter beef, then you will need to castrate your bull calves for several years in order to produce this beef with the cows in your herd. By doing this, you will learn which cows in your herd produce the superior beef steers, and those cows will be the ones that you may want to keep some future bull calves from. Unless you are counting on plain dumb luck, you should probably castrate every bull calf born in your herd, until you have sufficient firsthand experience to feel confident in your ability to identify the outstanding ones.
Patti
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zephyrhillsusan
member
Caught Dexteritis in Dec. 2009. Member of this forum since Oct. 2013.
Posts: 1,502
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Post by zephyrhillsusan on Sept 21, 2014 20:49:08 GMT -5
Thank you, Jeff and Patti, for the helpful input on making the "to bull or not to bull" decision.
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Post by trdean on Sept 22, 2014 7:45:55 GMT -5
Thanks for the comments all. I did not breed this fella and the picture is not good...I apologize. I was out doing some work and decided to try to take a picture and he was more interested in my trimmer. I should have waited. I did not breed this little guy, he came in the package with his dam. She is a pretty good mother with good size and I really like her. My plan is indeed to steer him, but was curious as to others thoughts. Do most steer at weaning or younger? I am currently running a nice bull with my cows and am satisfied with his offspring for now, but am wanting to make improvements as I go forward. What are some of the more "beef" producing AI sires out there that would move me in the direction I am wanting to go? I am not looking for a dual purpose style animal...more focusing on the beef side of things as I believe I have a nice niche market in my area. Thanks for the comments and suggestions all! Tim
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Post by trdean on Sept 22, 2014 7:48:46 GMT -5
BTW...I really like the Rawlings Blueprint bull in Australia. He is a nice looking animal...but I can't get any of his semen.
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Post by hollydzie on Sept 22, 2014 8:22:06 GMT -5
trdean are you here in the States? One bull that really helps to put beef on calves is Hillview Red Wing. I have a son of his and that is one of the reasons I chose him. I am most interested in beef. I do not know if there is still semen of his available. Here is a link to him. Best of luck. kheartdexters.homestead.com/SALEBARN.html
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Post by carragheendexters on Sept 22, 2014 8:27:46 GMT -5
Tim, have you contacted Marg Rawlings to see if you can get semen sent over to the US? I don't know if he has been collected for export clearances, but there may not be too many restrictions for import into US. He is a very beefy bull, and throws it.
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Post by hollydzie on Sept 22, 2014 8:46:12 GMT -5
Blueprint is an upgraded bull and his offspring in the US would not qualify for registration . At least that was what I was told. I too found him to be outstanding wish he could be used here. Actually Rawlings is using semen from the US. The bull I told you about that I have out of Redwing is a 1/2 brother to one of the bulls Marg is using. I think it is so neat to have all these animal around the globe. You can see Marg's post on here under First calves out of Macintosh. dextercattle.proboards.com/thread/4300/first-calves-fourche-macintosh-australia
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Post by rawlingsdexter on Sept 22, 2014 18:10:14 GMT -5
Hi All Thanks for the nice comments about Blueprint, I am very proud of him but more importantly the calves he has given us.
By listening to the critique of our animals by others - Judges and fellow cattle breeders (not always Dexter breeders), I was able to identify and work on improving our lines. From what we started with to what we are producing today, I can say we have made quantum leaps.
If I may make a few comments about my observations of the animals in the US, a lot of people tend to keep bulls which would have made excellent steers. A bull has to be outstanding for us to even consider keeping him, and his dam has to be one of our best females in terms of correct conformation and udder structure. I will not consider having a bull collected unless I have multiple progeny which are impressive.
I also believe a bull must produce consistency, all his calves have to have his stamp, a certain look about them which is all the same. Also use the genetics of one bull until you can not use him any further, providing his progeny fit your breeding goal. This will ensure you have a herd of consistent animals, I am so thrilled when I look out at our herd and see animals which look alike and have a whole paddock full of animals I like to look at.
I started by researching bloodlines that I liked the look of animals which I would have in our herd, that means they fitted our picture of our ideal animal. I started to notice common denominators in those I liked, several sired by one bull line and so I chose to introduce that into our herd. With the aim to breed a herd bull that I could use to improve the animals we were producing. For us they were original lines containing Saltaire Guiness and Thomas Rue Grande as they carried red genetics which I was particularly interested in, we could put two black animals together and get a red calf. We then moved on to lines which included Llanfairs Finnigan and Cornahir Outlaw, it was then we saw our most positive herd improvement.
Polling became the next trait which we chased, with the goal to have a homozygous polled herd into the future. Then along came Blueprint, homozygous polled, not perfect by any means, his tail set and body length needed improvement, but what an improvement he has given us. This is why I have chosen certain lines from the US which I feel most closely compliment the females in our herd. Time will tell if I made the right choices.
It is certainly getting harder to get improvement every time, but we still have not bred a perfect cow. If it was that easy we would all have one, but the interest is in trying to get there. Identify your animal's faults, they all have them and look to improve on those. Don't focus solely on beef but endeavour to maintain the dual purpose qualities which make our breed unique. Milk = Meat, as without a good milk supply the calves do not grow to there potential.
Good luck, do not lose sight of your breeding goals and strive to get there, it is not easy but very rewarding when you do.
Thanks
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Post by dexterfarm on Sept 23, 2014 12:36:38 GMT -5
It would be very hard to evaluate based on that one picture. Also at only 3 months hard to say what he will do. Also I would say dont worry about others opinions breed what you like. As already mentioned the milk is needed for the calf so you have to consider that even if you are not milking. should you happen to get one that produces so much milk that the calf can not take it all and she must be milk for her udder health. then you will have no problem finding some one to take that one off of your hands. As far as the castration goes why do it at all. I stopped castrating for the increased growth. I also prefer the temperament of a bull over a steer. I have 2 exceptions. I breed only Legacy but have 2 polled cows all of their bull calves are castrated. I also have cows with PHA so any bull calf that test for PHA is castrated. I can accept an accidental breeding from any of the others. I keep good records as to which bulls are where and when. I parentage confirm. Keeping the records lets me know exactly who needs to be considered as a possible sire. I keep a closed herd so that is another advantage multiple bulls gives me options. The ones that I do castrate I band at about a month old. I had the vet do one at a year old and I was very unhappy with the vets treatment of him and the obvious pain that he was in for at least a week after. I will never do that again.
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zephyrhillsusan
member
Caught Dexteritis in Dec. 2009. Member of this forum since Oct. 2013.
Posts: 1,502
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Post by zephyrhillsusan on Sept 23, 2014 15:10:34 GMT -5
Thank you, J & M Chambers, kansasdexters, and rawlingsdexter! I have copied some of these very helpful comments (along with your names, of course!) and put them in a document that I'm saving in my Dexter files. This is so helpful, and I know I'll want to read it again and again--and now I won't have the frustration of searching for it! Thanks to all of you who are always so willing to share your hard-earned knowledge! I, for one, do not take it for granted!
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Post by carragheendexters on Sept 23, 2014 17:20:29 GMT -5
Blueprint is an upgraded bull and his offspring in the US would not qualify for registration . At least that was what I was told. Holly, is this what people feel and say and is an "understanding" or what is actually in your ADCA regulations. I just looked up your SOP and the section on registration of foreign animals. It states that they have to have a 5 generation purebred pedigree. It doesn't mention anywhere that upgraded bulls are not eligible. I suppose it depends on definition of "purebred". If you were to import from Australia a graded up bull, it is possible to have a 5 generation pedigree of "purebred" animals. Some people over here distinguish between "purebred" and "pureblood". Just wondering if this is an "understanding" or is actually " the "rules and regs" ?
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