Breeding Priorities

[zephyrhillsusan]

Someone who reads my blog recently asked how we determine what to breed for.  It got me thinking hard, trying to gel everything into a coherent list.  I was grateful to this reader for spurring me to put this in writing. So here it is. Please, y'all, be nice!  I'm hoping to get some exchange of ideas, not be crucified or stir up a hornet's nest.     What are your breeding priorities and how do you rate them in order of importance?

[emgiger]

I will go ahead and take a stab at this. I think it's an excellent topic.

Here is my VERY simple list of breeding priorities….

1) Temperament - a nasty cow is a cow that should never reproduce, period.

2) Conformation, conformation, conformation & conformation!! Just like most things, if a cow is not built well he/she will not reach their potential to produce for several years. This starts with feet, udders, depth, width, etc. I am still a student, constantly learning, especially in this area.

3) Color, polledness, & A2 are a low priority. I am way too busy trying to focus on putting together a decent cow. :-)

4) Excess white, extra teats……These are simply aesthetic issues that do no affect the function of the cow. Obviously, if an animal is going into the show ring it would be a concern, but honestly these things don't bother me a bit.


On a closing note I would like to disclose that I have a Non-PHA and Non-Chondro herd, I do not breed chondro carriers on my farm. That said, I have no issues with breeders who choose to do so as long as they do it responsibly with testing. This is a personal choice, no politics involved! About PHA……..If I had an exceptional cow that carried PHA, I would NOT cull her. I would continue to breed her and test offspring. Exceptional genetics are priceless!


Eileen

[zephyrhillsusan]

I agree with you, Eileen, that conformation is a learning process. And an evolving one--there's no magic fix for all faults at the same time, is there?

[ssimons]

Eileen,first let me say I agree with your priorities list for breeding characteristics. Perhaps respondents would elaborate on their idea of acceptable temperament when they list it as an important consideration. Seems temperament evaluation is a lot like gymnastics, very subjective. For me, after spending most of my life with "range type" cattle and "rough stock" , EVERY Dexter has an acceptable disposition to me. Seriously, what would be the tipping point for you folks with years of handling and breeding experience ? I'm not trying to take this topic in a different direction, just would like a more in-depth definition of disposition and temperament from those who list it as a priority breeding characteristic for us beginners.
In the back of my mind it seems that Patti may have discussed this subject some time ago , but I can't find it.






Shawn Simons
Simons Brothers Livestock
Magna, Utah

[cddexter]

Back when we were first getting into evaluation, I suggested temperament be one of the issues. I figured the following cartoon pics would do the trick:

1 point: in a 30' pen, cow either climbing 5' panel to get away, or charging you (flight or fight)
2 points: cow keeping distance, leery look in eye
3 points: cow close, not touchable, watchful look in eye
4 points: cow close, touchable but not handleable, with neck stretched out to get treat
5 points: person draped over cow, scratching neck, cow with dreamy look in eye

I know some of this depends on how much the animal is handled, but it works fairly well.

cheers, c.

[kansasdexters]

Temperament (docility) is a genetic trait that can be tested for. We test our breeding stock using the Igenity Beef Profile test and Docility is one of the factors that is tested for in this profile. We've found that a score of 5 or higher (on a 1 to 10 scale) correlates well with a calm, friendly, easy to handle, easy to train Dexter cow or bull. Our current herd sire, Ace of Clove Brook, scored 7 out of 10 on Docility. This test currently costs $38.00 and is done on tail hairs. Test results take about 2 weeks to get after the sample is received by the lab.

Testing for Docility using a genetic test like this helps make the evaluation more objective, can be done at an early age, and increases understanding of the contributions that each individual may have to offer, or not offer, to a breeding herd.


Patti

[marion]

Oct 10, 2014 0:46:34 GMT -5 cddexter said:

Back when we were first getting into evaluation, I suggested temperament be one of the issues. I figured the following cartoon pics would do the trick:

1 point: in a 30' pen, cow either climbing 5' panel to get away, or charging you (flight or fight)
2 points: cow keeping distance, leery look in eye
3 points: cow close, not touchable, watchful look in eye
4 points: cow close, touchable but not handleable, with neck stretched out to get treat
5 points: person draped over cow, scratching neck, cow with dreamy look in eye

I know some of this depends on how much the animal is handled, but it works fairly well.

cheers, c.

Carol, I have a yearling of your breeding, linebred Warlord daughter who is going to her new home today along with two others. Yesterday I was showing the new owner how the cow loves to have her udder rubbed and scratched. With this stranger next to me, the heifer was in heaven as I rubbed and scratched, eyes almost closed and nose touching the floor! I love those fives ..marion

[zephyrhillsusan]

Those are good comments on temperament. We didn't start out thinking about it, but it became important for us. Our first cow did not like to be touched and did not want us near her, nor would she let us near her first calf for about three weeks. (Luckily she didn't need help! She calved, nursed, raised & weaned that baby without any help at all. She was an Apple in terms of "user friendly"--she just wasn't friendly!) Her heifer grew up completely different, allowing us to handle her, halter her, touch her first calf without any suspicion on her part, milk her with never a kick, etc. That got us spoiled, and we decided that was how we liked things. After the foundation cow had her second calf for us, we decided that we did not want to deal with being unable to touch her calf until she decided that we could. We didn't even have to explain about her to a buyer because the people we bought her from decided they wanted her back. She was much better with them. I think we were too rank of newbies and were intimidated by her horns. (Let me hasten to add that I know many horned cows are quite cuddly; it's just that this one wasn't.) We sold the cow instead of butchering her because she was a good cow if you didn't care about handling her or trying to touch her new calf. She was not mean, just a touch-me-not. But that is how temperament became important to us and how we decided we wanted a more "hands on" type of animal.

Both of our current cows would score 5 points.

[Fran]

I have 2 cows that are somewhat "standoffish". I can get near, touch, stand beside to feed treats, etc. They're just not overly friendly. One is our herd matriarch and the other is her 3rd calf. The younger one just had her first calf on Monday. She's an EXTREMELY attentive momma but doesn't mind me messing with her new calf. I have cows that were sired by a mean bull and all of them (with the exception of Georgia, the standoffish one) are extremely friendly. I like friendly animals! They are easy to work with and just make life more enjoyable. I too like Eileen's list.

[lakeportfarms]

I have a cow that will sneak up behind me in the pasture and pull my shorts down to my ankles.  I had to start wearing a belt to stop her.  She deserves better than a "5" for that

[lonecowhand]

Wow Patti , that is a revelation for me. Not just that you can test for docility, but that there's a genetic marker for it. Kind of throws out the "Nurture Vs. Nature" arguement! I wish you could see that on a pedigree.
Susan, what a great thread.

[karenp]

Oct 10, 2014 10:34:59 GMT -5 lakeportfarms said:

I have a cow that will sneak up behind me in the pasture and pull my shorts down to my ankles.  I had to start wearing a belt to stop her.  She deserves better than a "5" for that

Lower Delaware

We need video of that, you'd win AFV.

[zephyrhillsusan]

Thanks, lonecowhand, you all are making it great! And Hans, we ALL vote for a video of that!!! And yes, I think we have to give your cow at least a 10 for that!

[RedRidge]

Oct 10, 2014 0:46:34 GMT -5 cddexter said:

Back when we were first getting into evaluation, I suggested temperament be one of the issues. I figured the following cartoon pics would do the trick:

1 point: in a 30' pen, cow either climbing 5' panel to get away, or charging you (flight or fight)
2 points: cow keeping distance, leery look in eye
3 points: cow close, not touchable, watchful look in eye
4 points: cow close, touchable but not handleable, with neck stretched out to get treat
5 points: person draped over cow, scratching neck, cow with dreamy look in eye

I know some of this depends on how much the animal is handled, but it works fairly well.

cheers, c.

I think the different number classifications are interesting but I'm not so sure they accurately represent temperament. There is a difference between good and bad temperament and how much handling a cow has had. I believe those two things should be evaluated separately and that Carol's numbering system inaccurately merges them.

So... a great idea in theory but... Here's an example of why I don't think it's accurate for temperament alone.
Suppose I have cow A and B and cow A was handled a lot and shown and is halter broken and by Carol's chart would be between a 4 and a 5. Cow B has never been handled or had a halter on and is somewhere between a 3 and a 4. In this situation the numbers can be very misleading without the background of he cows as fast as determining temperament. It may have taken a LOT of work to get cow A to be handleable and halter broken. Cow B may not have even been given the opportunity.
I personally will take cow B who scored a 3.5 by this scale over cow A who scored a 4.5 - it's not apples and oranges.
Even if you assume reach cow has the same background and opportunities, training has an effect on this type of evaluation. There is a difference between the leery cow who has never had the opportunity to develop a human relationship and the one who is tolerant of humans due to a lot of interaction but not necessarily trustworthy.
I have 3s, 4s, and 5s here and I believe some of my 3s have better underlying genetic temperments than the others. It is not like temperament testing pups at 7 weeks who ate clean slates - way too many other variables to consider.
I think assigning a number is a great idea for in house comparison but there needs to be more options considered and averaged in for a more accurate evaluation. Jmo

[cddexter]

Which accounts for my saying: "I know some of this depends on how much the animal is handled, but it works fairly well. "

My cows weren't handled a lot, so it worked for me: everything on the place came from the same handling style.And, since I'd been breeding for a while, and everything was raised on the farm, I was starting from a level playing field. If you are newer, and have animals you've bought from elsewhere, all with diffeent handlging, well, of course you'd have to make allowances. cheers, c.