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Post by RedRidge on Oct 25, 2014 8:26:10 GMT -5
This group of calves doesn't normally get grain but in an effort to get some pics I taunted with buckets and some grain the other day. One of the pics I snapped while they were pushing each other around showed the varying heights so i thought I'd share. All three are between 13 and 16 months, so pretty close in age. The closest is a chondro bull (32" at hip), the middle a non-chondro heifer, and the furthest is a non-chondro steer out if a chondro cow.
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zephyrhillsusan
member
Caught Dexteritis in Dec. 2009. Member of this forum since Oct. 2013.
Posts: 1,502
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Post by zephyrhillsusan on Oct 25, 2014 11:58:35 GMT -5
Interesting. Thanks for sharing.
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Post by Cascade Meadows Farm - Kirk on Oct 29, 2014 11:38:35 GMT -5
Thanks for sharing. While the Chondrodysplasia lethal defect gene can instantly shorten 50% of calves of any breed of cattle (not just dexters), through diligent selection work and a good number of years you can work on reducing the size of your ENTIRE Dexter herd, without the lethal gene. I'm getting a good number of true shorts that are lot shorter than our original Dexters, but without the Chondrodysplasia lethal gene. Here's a new article I found regarding the Chondrodysplasia Lethal Defect Gene. calfology.com/library/wiki/dwarfism-condrodysplasia
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Post by rhonda on Oct 29, 2014 14:40:27 GMT -5
I often wonder how tall some of the chondro carriers would be if their bones were normal..
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Post by RedRidge on Oct 29, 2014 18:52:25 GMT -5
Thanks for sharing. While the Chondrodysplasia lethal defect gene can instantly shorten 50% of calves of any breed of cattle (not just dexters), through diligent selection work and a good number of years you can work on reducing the size of your ENTIRE Dexter herd, without the lethal gene. I'm getting a good number of true shorts that are lot shorter than our original Dexters, but without the Chondrodysplasia lethal gene. Here's a new article I found regarding the Chondrodysplasia Lethal Defect Gene. calfology.com/library/wiki/dwarfism-condrodysplasiaInteresting but... Not quite accurate... So... Since we can carry on a civil conversation about our desires for our Dexters, I will add that I obviously like the chondro Dexters and find no fault in the gene. For those who do I encourage you to look up the word lethal in the dictionary. A lethal gene is a gene that will produce lethal effects regardless of the genetics it is crossed with. Chondrodysplasia is not lethal. But more importantly I believe most people who do not understand genetics fail to understand how basic genetics works. Genetics is a passion for me and some genetics can be very complicated - take all the genes involved in creating the different poultry colors for instance. But chondro genetics is a basic 2x2 punnett square. One easily controlled for anyone who has taken a basic biology class. I am not trying to be condescending to anyone about their knowledge. I know I am preaching to the choir here and most dexter owners have a basic understanding of genetics. I am simply stating how basic genetics works. Lethal means deadly - not a possibility of being deadly but a certainty of death. Breeding a chondro with knowledge is no more a death sentence than breeding a non-chondro. Calling these genes lethal is, in my opinion, misleading and irresponsible. The chondro and horned debate have long since been a topic of conversation on this and many threads. A debate both sides seem to have opinions about. We are talking about one gene... Only one. It is so easy to make breeding decisions when it's just a single gene. No need to run scared, just make sound breeding decisions. I've asked this final question before and the answers I get are always thought provoking... If you knew you had a gene which, if passed on to female offspring (50/50 chance of passing it on and 50/50 chance of offspring being female), would cause that female daughter an 86% chance of cancer by age 40, would you have children? These are humans we are talking about. Would you consider that a lethal gene? (I obviously wouldn't because it is not 100% a death sentence.) But if your answer was no, you would not have children. Would you have a problem with those who choose to? Always thought provoking when we talk about humans instead of animals. Is there a right or wrong answer? Fortunately with chondro in cattle we have the knowledge to prevent any lethal possibilities. So that means that chondro gene is no more lethal than the shot gun in my gun rack. I sure wish people thought bad feet and legs, being base narrow, and/or bad toplines were lethal. I personally find those more of a negative impact on the health of a dexter than chondro. ;-)
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Post by legendrockranch on Oct 29, 2014 20:44:25 GMT -5
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Post by legendrockranch on Oct 29, 2014 21:00:22 GMT -5
One other important information that is not mentioned with the frequency as the word lethal, is that chondro carriers are prone to arthritis at an early age. There is a current conversation on facebook started by a long time breeder on this topic. I understand that many people love their chondro carriers, I just wish all the possible complications that might come about with owing one would be mentioned.
Barb
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Post by RedRidge on Oct 29, 2014 21:07:45 GMT -5
I realize that Barb. But i disagree with it. It is inappropriate terminology. Terminology that is misleading and coined but not accurate. We have enough education that is necessary when we promote and sell to new dexter owners without having to continually clarify the misleading phrase of "lethal gene". Thank goodness most people understand basic punnett squares and when properly explained it just makes new people wonder why the term was coined to begin it, which makes for even less faith in the already divisive dexter world. If it was accurate we'd use that same terminology for humans. Which was the point I made on the previous post. When we test humans and they carry a mutation they are not classified as carrying a lethal gene. I could come up with many adjectives but the word lethal doesn't qualify. Not one to ever care what "the authorities say" because of lack of faith that the authorities in many cases are qualified, their "coinage" is irrelevant to me. You can call me many things but never a sheeple. ;-)
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Post by legendrockranch on Oct 29, 2014 22:21:04 GMT -5
That's why we call chondro carriers "carriers" I would like to clarify my statement, chondro carriers are not just carriers, they are affected by the gene also hence the term dwarf. edited to add: maybe we should stop using the word carrier for chondro, if any term can be misconstrued it's that one.
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Post by kansasdexters on Oct 29, 2014 22:47:21 GMT -5
I believe the current discussion concerning chondro-carriers suffering from arithritis at an early age (it typically starts around 9 or 10 years old) can become an issue for the Dexter owners that own their cattle into advanced old age. Not many Dexter owners are in this category, and even fewer Dexter owners with chondro-carriers are in this category. Those of us that have owned a chondro-carrier for a decade or longer, have seen with our own eyes the progression of the joint deterioration, accompanied by muscle atrophy and difficulty in movement. Then, we reach the point of finally having to make the hard decision to euthanize an animal that is obviously in pain most of the time.
You don't normally see photos of these well loved, well cared for animals into their state of advanced decline. I have photos that show what a chondro-carrier looks like at 14 years old, just prior to being euthanized. I don't want to offend anyone or sensationalize this, but it does happen more often than not with a chondro-carrier. However, you likely won't see it, or have to deal with it, unless you keep your cows or bulls until they are older than 10 or 11 years old.
Patti
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Post by Cascade Meadows Farm - Kirk on Oct 29, 2014 23:26:37 GMT -5
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Post by lakeportfarms on Oct 30, 2014 5:31:30 GMT -5
Barb, I'm happy Patti chipped in, because you don't seem to be able to disagree with her, and your list of registered Dexters is exactly what she has described. I'm sure if I raised the point you'd find a way to dispute it.
I have 6 chondro carriers older than your oldest cow, including 3 that are 12-13 years old. No signs of arthritis and they get around just fine. True that Mike has it and this is his last week at our farm, but he was fine until he got into a big fight with a 1700 or so pound Scottish Highland bull with big horns. He didn't get up for 4 days following that, and that was 6 years ago. Oh, look at that...you don't even have a bull that is 6 years old yet! Mike in an average breeding season until last winter would cover 30 cows or more, so it's not like he had nothing to do.
Perhaps my others will start to develop it someday, but our experience with the carriers (of which you've never had) has been that the advantages far outweigh the possibly slightly shortened lifespan. You always talk about people should have what they want etc... but you never miss an opportunity to bring up the arthritis, etc... in any possible forum or topic with regards to carriers.
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Post by lakeportfarms on Oct 30, 2014 6:04:47 GMT -5
I'll add this, as many of us who own chondro carriers will attest, the shorties do not move around as much or as fast as the non-carriers. When run in a mixed herd, this puts added stress on the chondro carriers to keep up with the non-carriers, especially if you're talking about a 10 year old carrier combined with a 3 year old non-carrier. Furthermore, when run in a mixed herd, the carriers will tend to have better body condition when consuming similar amounts of feed. I know the muscles on the smaller frame argument, but no matter how you look at it decreased activity means a lower inputs are required to maintain or gain weight. And like humans, arthritis is often linked to excess weight or past injuries.
Saying chondro carriers are more prone to arthritis is the correlation does not imply causation argument...is the the chondro alone that is responsible for the arthritis, or is it the circumstances like excess weight, injury or just wear and tear from trying to compete with the non-carriers, or other factors that are contributing to the development of arthritis.
Run carriers in their own herd, with their own tailored feed (we don't feed ours any grain), keeping their weight down, and without the shoving, bumping,running of the non-carriers, and I expect you'll have a much lower incidence of arthritis. They'll plod along at their own rate, and with similar numbers and ages in a group between carriers and non-carriers, you'll only have to bring 2 round bales out to the carriers for every 3 that you bring to the non-carriers.
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Post by cddexter on Oct 30, 2014 11:48:23 GMT -5
Rhonda: on average (average, remember), you will find there is a height difference of approximately 15%. So, if the animal would have been 45 inches tall without the chondro, it is likely to be close to 6.5 inches smaller, or 38.5 inches. This is not a fixed guaranteed percentage, as the chondro effect can vary. No one knows why yet, but I suspect it's something like hormones: we all have them, but in differing amounts. Severely affected animals could have a 20% difference, only slightly affected animals might be as low as 7 or 10%.
This brings us smack dab up against the single height standard problem. The 45" animal is considered too tall (?), but the 38.5 animal is considered just right. Same animal, one gene different.
I think I remember Patti saying she had a mother/daughter non-c/carrier combo with only 2" difference in height. Could be only slight affect, or it could be the smaller would have been smaller anyway, even without the c-gene. We don't know.
And, Sheri, we all know that thanks to ego and religion, homo sapiens is reluctant to cull its own species. Instead we propagate, retaining serious defects, and then wait for science to figure out some sort of surgical or chemical fix. My sister in law had three kids, all with something wrong. The last was so allergic he was almost a bubble baby. She sacrificed the entire family to keep him alive. He's now in his early thirties and you'd never know how fragile and sick he was. When he married, I suggested he might decide to adopt instead of having children in case he passed on the problem. They were all AGHAST at the thought. Sisinlaw went white with anger, and spat at me, well, we know more now and the drugs are much better now, so there's no problem.
Sheri and Hans: Looks like you both have similar views to sisinlaw: manage the problem, don't fix it.
In our case here, however much you both personally don't like the term lethal, you are unwittingly agreeing with it by pointing out if chondro is 'managed' it isn't lethal. Point made, enough said.
Cheers, c.
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Post by legendrockranch on Oct 30, 2014 12:12:25 GMT -5
Hans, I have posted Beryl Rutherfords comments on this forum before, I think it needs repeating, especially the last sentence "I see no sense in having to cull an animal half way through its life, as I used to do in my early days"
by Woodmagic ยป Wed Jan 24, 2007 11:04 am There are still many breeders in this country who prefer to breed to the short leg, usually using a long leg bull on their short leg herd, and selling any resulting long leg heifers. In my own experience the short leg carrier stands a big risk of becoming arthritic between the ages of eight or nine, and most short leg herds will have one or two in this condition. It can occasionally develop much earlier, but it was definitely one of the reasons I decided I must try to produce a short leg animal without the achondrodysplasia. Since I have eliminated it, I can honestly say I have only seen arthritis develop at much greater age, I have had a cow of 21 who developed a limp in her last two years, and one of nineteen at the moment, but I think at that age it is a reasonable impairment. The achondrodsyplasia is a fault in the bone development, and it is not surprising that it can increase the onset of early arthritis. I see no sense in having to cull an animal half way through its life, as I used to do in my early days.
I will also have to fine Louisa Guidney comment she is a Dexter owner and archeologist who has researched Dexter bones, I'm sure she made some type of statement in regards to this matter.
Barb
Edited to add, I'm sure you realize Hans that there are various degrees of chondro, some animals more affected than others. Even though you have a animals that are 12-13 years old did you raise them from birth in order to really know if there is a difference?
I have NOT mentioned you or your animals until my last sentence on this thread. So please reframe from doing the same.
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