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Post by lakeportfarms on Oct 30, 2014 13:04:41 GMT -5
Edited to add, I'm sure you realize Hans that there are various degrees of chondro, some animals more affected than others. Even though you have a animals that are 12-13 years old did you raise them from birth in order to really know if there is a difference? I have NOT mentioned you or your animals until my last sentence on this thread. So please reframe from doing the same. I'm not sure what you are saying with this. I have some very pronounced carriers here with very short legs, as well as some others who do not display as much. One of the smallest is 12 years old, and she is doing very well with no sign of arthritis. All it takes is a little bit of common sense to realize that carrying excessive weight puts unnecessary strain on joints that can lead to inflammation, damage, and subsequently to arthritis. I've had chondro positive cows here that when we acquired them were extremely fat and struggled to get around. They were in mixed herds that were also fed grain. The non-carriers looked fine, but the carriers suffered as a result. We took the chance with them, they lost a lot of weight, and their mobility and certainly their lifespan is greatly improved now. Simply put, it isn't much different than with humans. My mother in law is 75 years old, she still teaches dance part time, and she's had two hip replacements. Whether it was a genetic predisposition, or the result of an active lifestyle I couldn't say (I lean toward genetics), but I can tell you that following the hip replacements she has recovered faster than anyone else at a similar age that I am aware of. She is also not overweight at all, eats right, and has exceptional resolve. I'm going to go out on a limb here (sarc) and suggest that if she was 75 lbs. heavier, didn't exercise much, had poor dietary habits and self control, she wouldn't have made such a good recovery, and probably would have required the hip replacements at a much earlier age as well. I don't expect any of my cows to last 20 years. If some do, great. I'll do my part to help get them there. But there are a lot of other factors that go into a cows longevity than chondrodysplasia and arthritis.
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Post by RedRidge on Oct 30, 2014 13:17:24 GMT -5
... Sheri and Hans: Looks like you both have similar views to sisinlaw: manage the problem, don't fix it. In our case here, however much you both personally don't like the term lethal, you are unwittingly agreeing with it by pointing out if chondro is 'managed' it isn't lethal. Point made, enough said. Cheers, c. You made no point at all. Avoiding breeding chondro is not "fixing" what you view as a problem, it is simply avoiding it. That's like avoiding getting in a car because so many people die in cart accidents each year. You aren't preventing any car accidents, you are simply avoiding that as a potential for you... which by the way is managing. ;-) We see nothing to "fix" with chondro carriers if we don't see it as a problem. Managing... hmmmm... Don't we all manage? Humans and animals both. Have you ever had an Rx for any reason? Were you not managing an illness? For those on bp meds... are they not managing their bp to avoid death. Humans are control freaks, we manage everything. But we're also problem solvers. There are a lot of genes at play here and sacrificing some excellent genes because of a desire to avoid managing simply is a ridiculous statement in terms of right or wrong. I manage my breedings to calve in the spring and fall when I can. For those who choose not to limit their calving to those seasons I don't view them as wrong - just a different management method. Aren't you already managing future genetics by choosing which bull to breed with and which heifers to beef? Maybe I should just resign myself to no management. As my husband loves to say, "Let's remove all warning labels and let it sort itself out". LOL I guess by default I'd outlive most of you... I buried my 99 year old grandmother yesterday who had never been on a prescription med or antibiotic in her life. My dad, never been sick a day in his life and very fit was state tennis champ last year (at age 71). I'll keep my longevity and take my chances with the breast cancer mutations we've passed along. ;-)
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Post by legendrockranch on Oct 30, 2014 14:33:56 GMT -5
Hans, you said it "I have some very pronounced carriers here with very short legs, as well as some others who do not display as much" So some will be more affected than others, that was my point. Just as some animals will be prone to problems earlier than others. Going back and rereading some of your posts in this thread, sounds like in some of your comments you are making your own case against animals that are affected with chondro. Barb As a side note Sherri, sorry for you loss and may you live a long healthy life.
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Post by Cascade Meadows Farm - Kirk on Oct 30, 2014 15:22:18 GMT -5
There are a lot of genes at play here and sacrificing some excellent genes because of a desire to avoid managing simply is a ridiculous statement in terms of right or wrong. Actually, there is only one gene at play here. It's a broken ACAN gene (which we call the chondro gene). A good ACAN gene codes for proper chondrocytes (which are cells that form proper cartilage and bone). A broken ACAN gene confuses the chondrocytes and makes a mess of things. To address the problem, you simply need to give your calves two good ACAN genes, instead of one good ACAN gene + a broken ACAN gene.... Everything else stays the same, and you won't sacrifice anything at all (you'll just get rid of the broken ACAN gene which is a lethal gene). The broken ACAN gene (Lethal Chondro Gene) turns calves into dead bags of boneless mush called bulldogs. The good ACAN gene builds normal cartilage and normal bone A blend of the two genes (Good ACAN + Broken ACAN) results in stunted calves with early arthritis and early deaths. My point is to remind folks that you can have short, friendly dexters, without the lethal broken ACAN gene and without the early arthritis and without the early deaths. Simply select and keep your shortest and best NON-Chondro calves out of your favorite chondro stock and when your favorite old Chondro animals die of old age (which could be sooner than later), you'll have their best and shortest non-chondro progeny to replace them. These true-short dexters will breed true and won't have the lethal gene.
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Post by RedRidge on Oct 30, 2014 15:43:27 GMT -5
You're right, you can have friendly short cows with many combinations.
But about only one gene - nope. We were told that about the brca gene years ago and yet in just the last month they have discovered that is not the case. Too many genes at play to say that for certainty.
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Post by kansasdexters on Oct 30, 2014 17:53:29 GMT -5
There is variation in the height of Chondro non-carriers, due to genetics, as well as due to their environment, health, nutritional status, and other factors. There is variation in the height of Chondro carriers for exactly the same reasons.
Patti
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Post by cddexter on Oct 30, 2014 18:38:30 GMT -5
Kirk, careful. You have attrributed to me a comment Sheri made. I'd never think that taking Rx to get rid of an illness was managing it; I'd figure I was fixing it (eliminating it).
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Post by lakeportfarms on Oct 30, 2014 18:51:54 GMT -5
Hans, you said it "I have some very pronounced carriers here with very short legs, as well as some others who do not display as much" So some will be more affected than others, that was my point. Just as some animals will be prone to problems earlier than others. Going back and rereading some of your posts in this thread, sounds like in some of your comments you are making your own case against animals that are affected with chondro. Barb As a side note Sherri, sorry for you loss and may you live a long healthy life. Barb, perhaps I wasn't clear enough. I have variations in height among our chondro carriers, not that the shorter carriers are more likely to have arthritis. The black cow in the photo is 12 years old, she's one of our shortest. No indications of arthritis at all in her. However this girl run with non-carriers would be more at risk for injury and possibly injury induced arthritis. Correlation is not causation. This herd of adult cows are all chondro positive, and with the pasture rotation in the summer they consume less forage, and in the winter months when fed hay they consume less hay than a similar size non-chondro herd that we also have. They are fed the same round bales and in the same type of feeder, so I can compare side by side the consumption of both herds. Kirk, you'll never be able to produce "true short" cows that look like this, and that can also produce steers that will approach the size of the steers that these cows can wean if they produce non-carriers (50% of the time). This is why we raise chondro carriers.
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Post by RedRidge on Oct 30, 2014 18:55:30 GMT -5
Thank you Barb, we should all be so blessed as to lead such a full and blessed life. I wish this on everyone. :-)
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Post by legendrockranch on Oct 30, 2014 19:01:43 GMT -5
There is variation in the height of Chondro non-carriers, due to genetics, as well as due to their environment, health, nutritional status, and other factors. There is variation in the height of Chondro carriers for exactly the same reasons. Patti Patti, please clarify you comment. Basically it sounds like even though carriers/non carriers have the same reasons for height differences; chondro plays no part in the variance Barb
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Post by Cascade Meadows Farm - Kirk on Oct 30, 2014 19:06:42 GMT -5
Carol, I knew that wasn't your quote, it was an error of the system... I fixed it.
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Post by legendrockranch on Oct 30, 2014 19:07:56 GMT -5
Hans, you are one of the few lucky ones that can run 3 or more separate herds. One for chondro carriers, one for none carriers and one for you Highlands. I doubt that most Dexter breeders are able to do that.
Barb
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Post by Cascade Meadows Farm - Kirk on Oct 30, 2014 19:31:34 GMT -5
You're right, you can have friendly short cows with many combinations. But about only one gene - nope. We were told that about the brca gene years ago and yet in just the last month they have discovered that is not the case. Too many genes at play to say that for certainty. The Lethal Chondrodysplasia gene is a single gene and is so very well understood that there is a simple test for it. If it were NOT just one gene, then there would be no simple single-gene test for it and you would NOT be able to avoid dead bulldog calves. The PHA gene is also a single, simple, well-understood and testable gene.
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Post by Cascade Meadows Farm - Kirk on Oct 30, 2014 20:16:29 GMT -5
Kirk, you'll never be able to produce "true short" cows that look like this, and that can also produce steers that will approach the size of the steers that these cows can wean if they produce non-carriers (50% of the time). This is why we raise chondro carriers. I understand how the Chondro gene can be carefully used for a small advantage in some niche beef production for 50% of the calves, but it has nothing to do with Dexters and has everything to do with that single lethal gene. Any breeder of any breed of cattle could use this single lethal gene for that trick, but at the cost of cutting the cow's productive life by 30% to 50%, and the cost of worrying about doubling up on the gene and getting dead calves (and sometimes dead moms), and the cost of running separate herds. You don't see many Angus or Hereford beef breeders excited to introduce this troublesome lethal gene into their beef production herds, and certainly not into their seed stock. All that said, if it works you, that's terrific... But folks wanting a trouble-free, simple, small homestead cow herd, could be overwhelmed by the complexities of worrying about accidentally doubling up on the lethal chondro gene, and dealing with early arthritis and such. Folks who want small and easy and long-lived and trouble free cows, should find some naturally short cows without the troublesome lethal chondro gene.
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Post by kansasdexters on Oct 30, 2014 20:29:37 GMT -5
Barb,
Per your request,to clarify my previous comment:
The presence or absence of the chondrodysplasia gene, as most of us know, does affect the mature size/height of a Dexter. But it is not the only gene that affects the mature size/height of a Dexter. There are also other factors such as nutritional status and other genes that can affect the mature size/height of a Dexter.
Patti
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