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Post by RedRidge on Oct 30, 2014 20:30:03 GMT -5
It's no trouble. Nor do I worry in the least about having chondro. There are enough real problems to worry about in life that creating a worry where none exists is not something I would wish on anyone. If keeping chondro worries you then don't do it. But don't make assumptions that those of is who do are misinformed. To the contrary, we have made our educated decisions based on not only our preferences but our personal experiences. I'm glad for you that you've made a decision that eliminates a worry for you. But that same decision for me would not have the same benefit. I spend my time trying to add more chondro to my herd because it is more profitable under my management style. Isn't it great that we are all free to make our own decisions based on our own needs.
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Post by RedRidge on Oct 30, 2014 20:31:11 GMT -5
Barb, Per your request,to clarify my previous comment: The presence or absence of the chondrodysplasia gene, as most of us know, does affect the mature size/height of a Dexter. But it is not the only gene that affects the mature size/height of a Dexter. There are also other factors such as nutritional status and other genes that can affect the mature size/height of a Dexter. Patti Thank you Patti for that clarification.
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Post by legendrockranch on Oct 30, 2014 21:28:09 GMT -5
Thanks Patti, of coarse I know that there are many other factors that can contribute to the size of a Dexter. For some reason I thought you were saying chondro played no part. Sorry if it makes no sense to you Barb
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Post by kansasdexters on Oct 30, 2014 21:34:38 GMT -5
Kirk,
Your summary statement is a bit misleading. It's not so simple as just having a herd that doesn't carry Chondrodysplasia or PHA. There are many factors that can affect the longevity, fertility, and productivity of a Dexter (or any other cattle breed). Simply taking Chondro and/or PHA out of the equation in no way guarantees success for a breeder/owner, or good health, or longevity for a Dexter cow or bull. Overall herd health critically depends on proper nutrition, good breeding practices, and on adequate care and attention to each individual within the herd. Always has, always will.
Patti
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Post by Cascade Meadows Farm - Kirk on Oct 31, 2014 0:35:54 GMT -5
Kirk, It's not so simple as just having a herd that doesn't carry Chondrodysplasia or PHA. There are many factors that can affect the longevity, fertility, and productivity of a Dexter (or any other cattle breed). Simply taking Chondro and/or PHA out of the equation in no way guarantees success for a breeder/owner, or good health, or longevity for a Dexter cow or bull. Overall herd health critically depends on proper nutrition, good breeding practices, and on adequate care and attention to each individual within the herd. Always has, always will. Patti I absolutely agree... but removing the lethal genes (over an adequate period of time), frees one up to spend more time to focus on proper nutrition, good breeding practices, and on adequate care and attention to each individual within the herd. In the case of Chondro, breeding without it also helps you easily focus on breeding for 100% naturally compact Dexters without the confusion of animals with big/tall genes masquerading as "short/compact" animals via the Chondro bone-defect. Dexters with too-big genes, have a harder time hiding in a non-Chondro herd.
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Post by lakeportfarms on Oct 31, 2014 6:22:21 GMT -5
Hans, you are one of the few lucky ones that can run 3 or more separate herds. One for chondro carriers, one for none carriers and one for you Highlands. I doubt that most Dexter breeders are able to do that. Barb Luck only plays a small role in it. I would say I'm lucky that my first experience and purchase of the Dexter breed was with chondro carriers and such a fine bull as Mike. But we also knew what we were looking for, even though we were raising Angus at the time. Our understanding was that a Dexter was a small breed of cattle. If I had run across a Dexter bull similar to many that I have seen out there, we probably would have passed on them and moved to Lowlines. Maybe some of you non-chondro types out there wish that would have been the case, since I seem to be a thorn in your side with my outspoken enthusiasm for the shorty Dexters that we love so much:D
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Post by wvdexters on Oct 31, 2014 6:28:32 GMT -5
While the "true short" dexters as we have started calling them recently are truly wonderful animals, they are essentially small longlegs. They are small in size but to say they are the same or replacements for carriers is incorrect. They are very different. Breeders who are familiar with both (having experience in their own fields, not from a book) have explained this repeatedly. To market them as such is misleading.
To say that chondro has nothing to do with Dexters is an incorrect statement because as we know carriers were/are a very important part of the breed history. To ignore this fact is to ignore a basic truth of the breed. Take some time and look into the early Dexters and look at the photos. You will see carrier after carrier, prizewinners. Our Foundation Animals
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Post by RedRidge on Oct 31, 2014 7:46:49 GMT -5
Hans, you are one of the few lucky ones that can run 3 or more separate herds. One for chondro carriers, one for none carriers and one for you Highlands. I doubt that most Dexter breeders are able to do that. Barb Luck only plays a small role in it. I would say I'm lucky that my first experience and purchase of the Dexter breed was with chondro carriers and such a fine bull as Mike. But we also knew what we were looking for, even though we were raising Angus at the time. Our understanding was that a Dexter was a small breed of cattle. If I had run across a Dexter bull similar to many that I have seen out there, we probably would have passed on them and moved to Lowlines. Maybe some of you non-chondro types out there wish that would have been the case, since I seem to be a thorn in your side with my outspoken enthusiasm for the shorty Dexters that we love so much:D Our Angus background led us to Dexters. We came extremely close to purchasing a red Angus herd. But being the forage conversion proponents that we are, we kept looking. One of my first two Dexters was a chondro. Man, I wish I had 50 just like her. ;-)
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Post by RedRidge on Oct 31, 2014 7:50:05 GMT -5
One of these days id sure love to make a trip to Michigan (when it's not covered in snow of course) and pick up a chondro decendent of mike's... Some day... Long way to drive for a heifer or cow though. Sigh
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Post by legendrockranch on Oct 31, 2014 10:24:42 GMT -5
since I seem to be a thorn in your side with my outspoken enthusiasm for the shorty Dexters that we love so much:D Surely not a thorn in my side, I'm just hoping you pass all the good, bad and ugly truth on to prospective buyers. You see its some people that don't mention all the possible complications you can have owning a carrier versus a non carrier that hurts the breed. For instance, most know not to breed to carriers together and I'm sure when you sell an animal you mention that. What happens when that animal is sold over and over again??? Does that information convey with the animal? Do you mention that carriers are not as active as non- carriers and that it might be better to run two herds and some are prone to arthritis? Which can cause them to have a shorter life span. I recently saw a thread where you posted " I prefer the more severe version of the chondro carrier". Here is yet another one of your comments "the chondro Dexter is going to become more and more rare as time goes by, because many cows don't make it that long" Really? Barb
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Post by RedRidge on Oct 31, 2014 10:41:58 GMT -5
I suspect he meant that many don't make it that long because they are eaten. I know many breeders off both cattle and sheep who breed to terminal sires in the females 7th year of birthing and then butcher her after weaning when the female is 8 years old or so.
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zephyrhillsusan
member
Caught Dexteritis in Dec. 2009. Member of this forum since Oct. 2013.
Posts: 1,502
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Post by zephyrhillsusan on Oct 31, 2014 11:22:40 GMT -5
Two questions, RedRidge: 1) What is a "terminal sire"? 2) And why butcher a healthy 8-year old cow?
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Post by lakeportfarms on Oct 31, 2014 11:42:18 GMT -5
Barb, rather than taking statements I have made in prior threads out of context and applying them to the current discussion, why don't you post the link to the thread it was part of?
Yes, I prefer the more severe chondro carriers over the "proportional" type carrier. I like to be able to visually tell that it is a carrier, and I breed for that among other traits. And I've said here several times that I believe there are other factors that are more likely to lead to arthritis. Genetic predisposition (other than chondro) excess weight, injury, and the challenges of the chondro carrier in keeping up with the non-carriers puts a lot of involuntary stress on the joints. No different from human beings. The black cow in the prior post is 12 years old, and though she looks big in the photo, she doesn't even come close to my waist in height. I do have a couple of carriers that are "proportionate", one of them is Debbie, the cow out of the polled bull that was line bred back to her father and who had the 65lb dead bull calf a couple of years ago where we almost lost her as well. I'd attribute her larger size to the sire, because we also own her mother Louise(almost 13 years old) and she is one of our shorter carriers and also out of the same dam as Mike. I also believe that the more severe the chondro is expressed, the greater the odds that the sire or dam will produce chondro carriers, and this has so far been the case in our calvings. And since I like to produce chondro carriers this fits in well with my breeding goals.
Regarding "cows don't make it that long", I believe I was using a figure of about 14 years of age or twelve calves in a cows lifetime. If you assume 50% of your calves will be carriers, that means 6 heifers, and three of them are chondro carriers. One to replace the dam, one to increase the herd size if you desire to, and one to sell to somebody. Most cows will not produce 12 calves in their lifetime, and frankly not all of the heifers she produces are necessarily breeding worthy. I have a yearling shortie heifer right now that we'll see what kind of calf she produces, and then she is going to be butchered as soon as the calf is weaned. Her heifer calf will have the same fate if she has the same temperament as her mother.
The ONLY way to really increase the numbers of chondro carriers as a percentage of the Dexter population is to use a chondro positive bull. Few breeders are doing that today. So the numbers of chondro carriers compared to the overall Dexter population will continue to decline. The red polled will be plentiful and easy to find, and the chondro Dexter will become quite scarce. If you want to take it further, the chondro Dexter out of a pedigree that doesn't include Saltaire Platinum somewhere will be nearly impossible to acquire from their owners.
I'm not about to police what others do with their Dexters following a sale. I usually make an agreement with purchasers who get a chondro bull and non-carrier heifer from us. I'll sell them a breeding pair that if they produce a carrier heifer, I'll happily exchange their carrier heifer for a non-carrier heifer of their choice of ours that is a similar age. Since most of our customers will have small herds, this works out well for them and for us. That solves much of the "mixed herd" problem before it ever becomes an issue. The only qualification I have is that their farm must be acceptable to us in how the Dexters are cared for and that they also can't be involved in picking up steers from the sales barn, or dairy calves, etc.
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Post by legendrockranch on Oct 31, 2014 12:21:21 GMT -5
Barb, rather than taking statements I have made in prior threads out of context and applying them to the current discussion, why don't you post the link to the thread it was part of? At your request, here is your whole post. Quite honestly I would have rather posted the whole thread as there were other comments you made I found as interesting to say it mildly. "Chondrodysplasia is going to be fairly rare with Dexters in comparison to the non-carriers. For example, we endeavor to breed as many chondro carriers as possible, by using chondro bulls on non-chondro heifers and cows, and non-carrier bulls on carrier cows. Assuming each cow will produce 12 calves in her lifetime (probably a higher number than she will actually produce) only 6 of these will be chondro carriers. Only 3 of these will be chondro positive cows. So this cow can only replace herself plus 2 more over her lifetime of 14 years with a calf every year. With the ever decreasing number of chondro positive bulls being used for breeding, the chondro Dexter is going to become more and more rare as time goes by, because many cows don't make it that long. As most of you know, when you have something rare that is still in demand (as chondro positive Dexters are), you're going to be able to easily find buyers for them. With our 50% non-carriers, we also have a market for those who want a non-carrier, either bull or heifer. So we can serve both markets for Dexters, we're not just limited to the one. I get on average 3-4 calls/month from people looking specifically for chondro carrier cows. They do a search on the ADCA site for chondro, and our name pops up with a long list of them. I don't have any to sell, because we're expanding our chondro cow herd, and will slowly be thinning the numbers of non-carrier cows. If anybody wants to develop a chondro cow herd of their own, they have two options...travel all over the country and pick them up one or two at a time, or use a chondro positive bull over their non-carrier cows and wait a long time for those chondro calves to mature and finally calve themselves. I prefer the more severe version of the chondro carrier, one that I can visually tell either at or shortly after birth. You can certainly tell when they start to mature. For us, the testing isn't really necessary. These more severe short carriers also tend to throw shorter legs on their non-carrier calves. Of course, the legs are only one of the clues that you look for to help determine chondro status. On the other thread, where I posted the short cows, Kirk mentioned that they are big cows with short legs. Actually they are not big cows, the dun one in front, for example, doesn't even come up to my waist". Edited to add. This comment was made Sept. 28th 2014 on another forum
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Post by RedRidge on Oct 31, 2014 12:28:31 GMT -5
Two questions, RedRidge: 1) What is a "terminal sire"? 2) And why butcher a healthy 8-year old cow? I'll answer why this is still commonly done at the end... Our background in raising separate animals for dairy and beef is likely what has led to a lot of exposure of this practice. However I know dexter owners who follow business plans that are a spin off of this old, but still very common, philosophy. I think the ideology of a sweet backyard pet who lives forever is something dexter people like the warm and fuzzy notion of... But practice does not always follow the warm and fuzzy rainbow. A terminal sire is a male chosen to put over females to maximize hybrid vigor. All offspring of both sex are destined for the freezer - thus the term terminal. Normally you are looking for prolific, easy keeping females. In selecting heavily for maternal traits an animal will give up growth and muscling. Please note this is very common in the dairy industry. We, dexter owners, attempt to balance those traits as opposed to attempting to maximize one extreme or the other. Consequently many would see this practice as taboo. I suspect more people still use this form culling (in some form or fashion) but it is rarely openly discussed. But the result of what i suspect are many people using this model (or something similar) still today is that you get misleading longevity numbers because many healthy cattle are taken off the radar, if not eliminated all together. Why not put them in the freezer at $4/lb while still healthy rather than roll the dice? Any given farm can only support X number of animals and when the bottom line is at stake the least potentially profitable animals are the ones to go. As to why? Again this practice became common in the dairy industry. If you look at an annual lactation chart of a dairy cow or dairy sheep you will notice (all things being equal in management for that same animal year after year) that lactation peaks in the third lactation, drops of only slightly for the next several years, and then begins a more rapid decline following the 7th lactation. Now while you ponder that, consider this... If a breeder is doing their job correctly, their up coming stock should experience better average lactations than their older stock - in other words your breeding program should be providing you with heavier lactating animals each year. Combine those two assumptions and what you have is a 2 year old animal who is far more valuable than the 7 year old animal. Consequently many 8 yr old animals end up in the freezer (or more common in recent years, retiring to homestead environment) instead of a commercial one. Why is this still done even in the meat industry? Three reasons... 1) Because of the bottom line. Pushing and animal, over feeding to create fast growth and/or high output, simply breaks down the animal thereby decreasing their longevity. 2) The increase in the demand for meat. Think about it... The average dairy farmer barely scrapes by. A very large part of their income is meat. Not just because of demand and revenue, but because darnit no matter how hard you try you simply can't get milk out of a bull - so those bull calves are useless on the dairy. Let's turn them into something profitable. If you breed your oldest cows each year to a very meaty bull, then sell all those calves (heifers and bulls) for meat, you are maximizing your annual income. 3) And... ya can't teach an old dog new tricks. It's what these old dairy farmers have always done.
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