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Post by lonecowhand on Nov 19, 2014 12:25:06 GMT -5
Those are both nice steers, Patti. Thanks for the photo. The problem with putting only friends "at one end of the table" is pretty soon people start shooting spitwads!
I appreciate your thoughts that the numbers aren't there. There are, according to some, only a couple of hundred breeding animals left of the Traditional Horned Dexters. They are the remaining gene pool of the animals from whom all Dexters were bred and should have an honored place at the table, rather than being denigrated. There may be some genetic advantages in that gene pool that will be useful to everyone's breeding programs at some point, healthwise.
I wonder at the purpose of the insults, there really are so few animals that competition in the market can't be a real issue. No ones getting duped into buying Traditional Horned Dwarfs, you can hardly find any if you try. So why not educate people on the virtues of the particular attributes of your own breeding programs, without using derogatory language,or poking at others'. Make a place at the table for the few remaining Traditional Dexter Breeders.
Bill
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Post by lakeportfarms on Nov 19, 2014 15:34:23 GMT -5
And Kirk, I have no problems managing our two herds, all it takes is a little good hi-tensile fencing. We have 5- 12.5 gauge wires, with a hot well grounded charger, but in the mind of the herd that is impenetrable considering they are contained by a single polywire at 30" for the summer. Two bulls across the fence from each other, with one breeding, and the other won't touch it. I'd dare say it's easier than trying to select bulls at an early age for the desirable traits that you claim to be doing. And if you're waiting for them to mature before you make the decision who has more compact frames and shorter legs, guess what? You're now managing an additional group of bulls aren't you? After all there isn't a DNA test you can perform in the first week like I have to determine which of them has shorter legs. Like most breeders, I do need to keep bulls separate from females at various times of the year. So I do often have the primary herd plus another smaller group of dexters (plus Icelandic sheep and grazing American Guinea Hogs too). I use regular field fence (some in shabby condition), plus a temporary single hotwire on fiberglass posts about 30 inches away from the regular fence. The hotwire is only needed as extra security when there are girls in heat on the other side of the fence from bulls. Sometimes I keep all the bulls and pregnant girls together, and separate off the young heifers that are too young to be bred. But it sounds like if you're dealing with Chondro, you might need to have 4 groups of cattle at times to keep bulls separate from females and to keep chondro separated from non-chondro (so the chondro's don't get too fat and crippled and die at age 9). It IS hard to judge a good bull at too young of an age, but if you have a group of young non-chondro normal bulls all the same age, it's pretty easy to spot the shorter, thicker ones fairly early on (like spotting shorter kids and taller kids in a 3rd grade classroom - the shortest boy in the 3rd grade usually doesn't end up being the tallest boy in college). In a mixed chondro herd, these true-short bulls wouldn't stand out so easily. I do understand that some folks like the "shorties" but you can have shorties without the lethal chondro gene. In fact, on this discussion board, there are regular photo postings saying "Guess if this is a Chondro or non-Chondro" and many people can't tell the difference. My key point is that unless people have a strong desire for the lethal chondro gene for some specific beef-production purpose, why not select "shorties" that don't have the lethal gene. PS. The longest legs I've ever seen on Dexters, were in Chondro herds, because most chondro breeders use the chondro gene to give the illusion of shorter legs on half of their calves, while 50% of their calves have VERY long legs. I've gasped out loud at some photos of VERY LONG-legged heifers in some Chondro herds. You can just as easily select and cull the long-legged animals from your herd even if you raise chondro carriers. I've also seen some very long legged Dexters out of chondro free herds, so it by no means is limited to chondro carriers. If you really want to boil down the problem with selection, it comes down to breeder discipline, and frankly, herd size. Some breeders are going to be more disciplined at what they keep for breeding stock, vs. cull, and those with larger herds (and in rare cases VERY small herds where they are purely raised for beef for the family and they're at ease with it) will tend to be more likely to cull less desirable Dexters by putting them in the freezer. We have a couple of longer legged carriers in our herd that we purchased elsewhere. All of the bull calves are steered from them. We haven't had any heifers out of them yet, but we'll apply the same criteria to them if they don't fit in. And by the way, from kindergarten to 11th grade, I was one of the shortest kids in my school, and when I came back in my senior year I was suddenly a lot taller than most of the others in my class. And I've seen Dexters and Highlands with the same type of delayed physical maturity, so making a selection based on what they look like when they very young may not always work.
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Post by lakeportfarms on Nov 19, 2014 15:34:33 GMT -5
And Kirk, I have no problems managing our two herds, all it takes is a little good hi-tensile fencing. We have 5- 12.5 gauge wires, with a hot well grounded charger, but in the mind of the herd that is impenetrable considering they are contained by a single polywire at 30" for the summer. Two bulls across the fence from each other, with one breeding, and the other won't touch it. I'd dare say it's easier than trying to select bulls at an early age for the desirable traits that you claim to be doing. And if you're waiting for them to mature before you make the decision who has more compact frames and shorter legs, guess what? You're now managing an additional group of bulls aren't you? After all there isn't a DNA test you can perform in the first week like I have to determine which of them has shorter legs. Like most breeders, I do need to keep bulls separate from females at various times of the year. So I do often have the primary herd plus another smaller group of dexters (plus Icelandic sheep and grazing American Guinea Hogs too). I use regular field fence (some in shabby condition), plus a temporary single hotwire on fiberglass posts about 30 inches away from the regular fence. The hotwire is only needed as extra security when there are girls in heat on the other side of the fence from bulls. Sometimes I keep all the bulls and pregnant girls together, and separate off the young heifers that are too young to be bred. But it sounds like if you're dealing with Chondro, you might need to have 4 groups of cattle at times to keep bulls separate from females and to keep chondro separated from non-chondro (so the chondro's don't get too fat and crippled and die at age 9). It IS hard to judge a good bull at too young of an age, but if you have a group of young non-chondro normal bulls all the same age, it's pretty easy to spot the shorter, thicker ones fairly early on (like spotting shorter kids and taller kids in a 3rd grade classroom - the shortest boy in the 3rd grade usually doesn't end up being the tallest boy in college). In a mixed chondro herd, these true-short bulls wouldn't stand out so easily. I do understand that some folks like the "shorties" but you can have shorties without the lethal chondro gene. In fact, on this discussion board, there are regular photo postings saying "Guess if this is a Chondro or non-Chondro" and many people can't tell the difference. My key point is that unless people have a strong desire for the lethal chondro gene for some specific beef-production purpose, why not select "shorties" that don't have the lethal gene. PS. The longest legs I've ever seen on Dexters, were in Chondro herds, because most chondro breeders use the chondro gene to give the illusion of shorter legs on half of their calves, while 50% of their calves have VERY long legs. I've gasped out loud at some photos of VERY LONG-legged heifers in some Chondro herds. You can just as easily select and cull the long-legged animals from your herd even if you raise chondro carriers. I've also seen some very long legged Dexters out of chondro free herds, so it by no means is limited to chondro carriers. If you really want to boil down the problem with selection, it comes down to breeder discipline, and frankly, herd size. Some breeders are going to be more disciplined at what they keep for breeding stock, vs. cull, and those with larger herds (and in rare cases VERY small herds where they are purely raised for beef for the family and they're at ease with it) will tend to be more likely to cull less desirable Dexters by putting them in the freezer. We have a couple of longer legged carriers in our herd that we purchased elsewhere. All of the bull calves are steered from them. We haven't had any heifers out of them yet, but we'll apply the same criteria to them if they don't fit in. And by the way, from kindergarten to 11th grade, I was one of the shortest kids in my school, and when I came back in my senior year I was suddenly a lot taller than most of the others in my class. And I've seen Dexters and Highlands with the same type of delayed physical maturity, so making a selection based on what they look like when they very young may not always work.
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