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Post by legendrockranch on Dec 29, 2014 19:38:19 GMT -5
Carol, Pleae note that all I said was that the article was taken from the DexterCattleWorld.proboards.com site without permission. Then came the personal attack. Nothing I am not used to fending off from the "mean girls" gang but do NOTE that . .. . . as usual. . . . .it is not ME who starts it. Judy, you said and insinuated more than that in your comment. Below is exactly what you posted: "It is interesting to note you visit and read ( and copy articles) at the Dexter Cattle World site. The article copied here is copyright. . . and I had permission from the author to reprint it . Perhaps you should request permission as well." It is you that started this. Because She did have permission, she did NOT copy and paste from your forum. Yet you accused her of not having permission and copy & pasting. Barb
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Post by midhilldexters on Dec 29, 2014 19:53:32 GMT -5
There are many that saw your FB episode, and no doubt have copies of your "typo" so not much more to say on it I guess.
Yes you said it was taken from your site without permission, you are a liar, I didn't take it from your site, and I didn't need your permission. You can send your apology anytime, we are all waiting.
Carol K
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Post by Olga on Dec 30, 2014 8:29:11 GMT -5
Carol, lets not feed this fire. I have sent Judy a message asking for proof or apology.
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Post by Cascade Meadows Farm - Kirk on Dec 30, 2014 15:46:10 GMT -5
Since ALL Dexters have scores of non-dexters in their backgrounds and since ALL Dexters have of tons of genes from their non-dexter backgrounds And since ALL past pedigrees are sprinkled with errors
It all boils down to this today:
1. We've got what we've got (stop staring at those old pedigrees too much, you'll go blind)
2. Do our best to maintain accurate pedigrees going forward
3. Do our best to select for important Dexter traits going forward:
a. Bulls MUST be VERY friendly and VERY manageable.
b. Cows MUST be sweet and let us work with their newborn calves (tagging/weighing, etc).
c. Dexters must be COMPACT (not too large, not too small) Bulls between 38-44" at 3 years.
d. Dexters must be Black, Dun, or Red... no white other than near udders..... horns or no horns is ok.
e. Dexters must be Healthy and Hardy - can thrive and easily calve WITHOUT much shelter (other than trees/shade). Can thrive without a lot of chemicals, without a lot of vet work, without a lot of shots.
f. Dexters must be Thrifty - can thrive on forage and minerals alone WITHOUT grain supplements.
g. Dual purpose and productive... Beefy, and milky enough, but not so milky that they MUST be milked.
h. Lots of good general cattle conformation (sound udders, sound feet, strong backs, correct legs, etc.)
i. Dexters should be long-lived... Cows should make it to 18+ healthy productive years, Bulls should make it to 13+ healthy years (if you don't eat them first).
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jamshundred
member
Help build the Legacy Dexter Cattle "Forever" Genotype database
Posts: 289
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Post by jamshundred on Dec 30, 2014 16:11:42 GMT -5
The Andrew Sheppy article reprinted on DCW was a unique copy from the computer of Mr. Sheppy. I was advised by Mr. Sheppy this afternoon that he was contacted by the editor of the UK Bulletin asking him to respond direct to a request by Carol Koller to reprint the Sheppy article and that on December 23rd he emailed copies of the article along with permission to reproduce the articles for anyone interested to Carol Koller.
I offer my sincere apology to Carol Koller for jumping to the conclusion she had copied the article from the DCW website and making that accusation against her on this group.
I was absolutely mistaken. I was absolutely wrong in all regards as to this article.
Judy Sponaugle
PS I note in this thread that Olga Penka has requested an apology or retraction. I apologize to Olga Penka as well though I have not yet received a private message from her.
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jamshundred
member
Help build the Legacy Dexter Cattle "Forever" Genotype database
Posts: 289
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Post by jamshundred on Dec 30, 2014 16:16:56 GMT -5
Barbara Netti,
I have NEVER in my life called anyone a cow. Anyone who uses a smartphone or IPAD is well aware of the embarassment that comes with the phone making automatic corrections and posting entirely different words than your originally type. I repeat. . . I have NEVER referred to anyone, man or woman as a cow. It is NOT a perjorative that I use. Immediately, when I reread the FB post I edited the error, stated it was an error, and apologized as Carol Kollar had already jumped into the thread to denounce me. Let me tell you NOW. . . just in case you don't know it already. . If *I* say it. . . I own it, and if there would ever be a time in my life that I felt like calling someone a cow. . . . and it was an insult in my lexicon. . . I WOULD do it. . . and I would NOT edit it
SO. . . your turn girls. POST THE THREAD. In the words of Olga, " prove it or recant".
Judy Sponaugle
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Post by legendrockranch on Dec 30, 2014 16:22:51 GMT -5
Barbara Netti, I have NEVER in my life called anyone a cow. Anyone who uses a smartphone or IPAD is well aware of the embarassment that comes with the phone making automatic corrections and posting entirely different words than your originally type. I repeat. . . I have NEVER referred to anyone, man or woman as a cow. It is NOT a perjorative that I use. Immediately, when I reread the FB post I edited the error, stated it was an error, and apologized as Carol Kollar had already jumped into the thread to denounce me. Let me tell you NOW. . . just in case you don't know it already. . If *I* say it. . . I own it, and if there would ever be a time in my life that I felt like calling someone a cow. . . . and it was an insult in my lexicon. . . I WOULD do it. . . and I would NOT edit it SO. . . your turn girls. POST THE THREAD. In the words of Olga, " prove it or recant". Judy Sponaugle Judy what in heck are you talking about? The statements you just posted were NOT FROM ME!!! "prove it or recant it" also applies to me. Barb
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Post by legendrockranch on Dec 30, 2014 17:57:30 GMT -5
At first I thought Judys apology was sincere, than a second later she turns around and attacks me for something I did not see or read or say. So with that I will take a deep breath and move on.
The main reason for this post, since it wasn't mentioned earlier is the reason Carol contacted the editor of the UK bulletin in the first place. They are publishing an article she wrote about milking and was requesting a copy of the bulletin be sent to her. The Sheppy article was secondary.
Congratulations Carol.
Barb
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Post by cddexter on Dec 30, 2014 17:59:18 GMT -5
Carol and Barb: cool it. You are just feeding the fire. Anyone who's been on any of the Dexter Boards for more than a year and has seen Judy in action is well aware it's the attention that floats her boat (her term). Let her make whatever accusations she likes--we are all used to it, and also used to her in-vain attempts to turn everything back on the other person. I love the new moniker 'mean girls' gang. Wonder if I can join?
Have stuff to post about the article but on the run again...food for thought: Suffolk dun was a polled breed, Red Poll is a polled breed. If Plover was 1/2 red poll/suffolk dun, how come he was horned?
cheers, c.
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Post by kansasdexters on Dec 31, 2014 9:03:03 GMT -5
There were brown Kerry cattle in the 1800's, and this is noted by David Low in his book, "On the Domesticated Animals of the British Islands", on page 309: www.biodiversitylibrary.org/item/105891#page/428/mode/1upSince a red Dexter can be homozygous for the dun gene (b/b) and not express it, it would have been quite easy for the dun gene to pass completely unnoticed in the red animals. In order for the Dexter dun color to be expressed, there has to be at least one dominant black gene (ED) at the red/black locus (MC1R) on Chromosome 18, AND the animal has to be homozygous for dun (b/b) on Chromosome 8. Thus, a dun Dexter is actually genetically black and the black is modified to a brown color (dun) when the animal is homozygous for dun (b/b) on Chromosome 8. Since red Dexters do not have a dominant black gene (ED)at the red/black locus, they cannot express the dun coat color. Black Dexters can be heterozygous for dun (B/b), and red Dexters can be either heterozygous for dun (B/b) or be homozygous for dun (b/b), and in all these cases they cannot show the dun color. Brown colored cattle were not favored in the 1800's, and Kerry breeders had financial motivation to select against this color in the Kerry breed. The pure black Kerry cattle were valued most highly in the marketplace. In the late 1890's Irish and British Kerry breeders were also selecting against red, because their Breed Societies prized the pure black Kerries. But Dexter breeders continued to breed for both black and red animals, thus the dun gene had a means of continuing through the generations of purebred, pedigreed Dexter cattle until present day. Later introgressions from other breeds were not necessary to bring brown color into the Dexter breed, it's very likely that it came into the Dexter breed at the very beginning, originating from ancestral brown Irish Kerry cattle. Patti
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Post by kansasdexters on Dec 31, 2014 9:54:58 GMT -5
The Vikings took cattle from Norway (and very likely from Ireland also, since there were Viking settlements along the Irish coast) with them when they went to Iceland, over a 1,000 years ago. So it would be very interesting (and possibly enlightening)to test cattle in Iceland for the dun gene. The Icelandic cattle were never selected to be any certain color, so all kinds of colors are expressed in this isolated cattle population of ancient origin: www.icelandichorse.is/cows.html
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zephyrhillsusan
member
Caught Dexteritis in Dec. 2009. Member of this forum since Oct. 2013.
Posts: 1,502
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Post by zephyrhillsusan on Dec 31, 2014 11:12:30 GMT -5
Thank you for the historical input, Patti. It's enlightening, as always. I think we get so used to the fact that PHA and chondro can not be carried without being expressed for even one generation, much less for multiple generations, that we sometimes forget that genes like dun can be carried as you described. Does anyone have friends in Iceland? That would be extremely interesting to make such an experiment! It sounds like a genetics thesis topic . . .
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Post by cddexter on Dec 31, 2014 20:41:52 GMT -5
Looked into it several years ago, Susan, but I'd have to go there to make it work. I have a niece researching her PhD in Iceland but she's not livestock oriented.
Something to remember is that farmers of the day thought nothing of combining the dun Suffolk with the red breeds, treating them as all the same color (which they became because of the nature of the Ed and red expressions). I have pics of the Grinstead Red Polls, and honestly I can't see Lady Loder ever intentionally breeding one of her Dexters to them.
And another thing to remember is that back then, bulls were kept in pens and only brought out to breed a cow, one at a time, and then returned to the pen. Very controlled, not like today when there is a much higher chance of a bull and bull calves all running with the herd. Lady Loder had her cows milked, so the calves would have been taken off early--again a lower chance of a bull calf being the culprit. I have pics of her herds and they were not mixed. Each breed was kept separately.
I've been doing some interesting background work, will post probably early next week when the rush is over and I have time to be less long-winded.
cheers, c.
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Post by kansasdexters on Jan 1, 2015 8:01:42 GMT -5
The Vikings had extensive travel experience and they were traders, as well as being raiders and settlers. Here is a simplified map of their trade routes: www.rmg.co.uk/sites/default/files/media/pdf/Viking_routes.pdfWhat is really interesting to me is the fact that they also traded cattle, which was a form of currency in those days. There are small, dual-purpose cattle that can still be found on the islands of Sicily and Sardinia, that are thought to have been brought there originally by the Vikings: eng.agraria.org/cattle/sarda.htmeng.agraria.org/cattle/sardomodicana.htmeng.agraria.org/cattle/modicana.htmHere's a noteworthy find, the smaller of the "indigenous" breeds of Sicily are Prete cattle. They are solid black (Prete means "priest", therefore black). Both oxen and cows are used to some extent for draft and sold for slaughter by their small farmer-owners when there is a need for cash. Milk production is only sufficient for the calf, and the lactation period is short. A mature cow weighs 700 - 800 pounds, and a bull weighs about 1,000 pounds. (Reference: World Cattle by John E. Rouse, University of Oklahoma Press, 1970): What do you think? To me, the Prete cattle look quite similar to small, Chondro-free, black, horned Dexter cattle. Cousins perhaps?
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zephyrhillsusan
member
Caught Dexteritis in Dec. 2009. Member of this forum since Oct. 2013.
Posts: 1,502
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Post by zephyrhillsusan on Jan 1, 2015 14:29:14 GMT -5
The Prete cattle look quite similar to me, and that brought up something else I've long thought. When we lived in Provence, I had a Camargue horse, a small white horse about 14-15h that are raised alongside what they call the Black Bulls of Camargue. At the time my eyes were mostly for the horses, not having discovered cattle yet. When we had to leave France and I had to leave my horse behind, I decided to go visit the "manade" or ranch he was from. I managed to go on the same day that a German photographer was there taking photos for a book (which I have in both French and English), and the "gardians" (cowboys) all piled onto their horses and worked a small herd of bulls so the photographer could get his shots. It was quite fascinating, and I shot quite a bit of film, too. Unfortunately, most of my photos were of the horses, but I did find this one of the cattle. They are pretty rough-coated, and the Kong-type things on the tips of the horns distort their shape. One article said that particularly the cows have perfect lyre-shaped horns. This particular batch has longer horns than some and longer legs, as well. Here's a link to some general photos of the Black Bulls of Camargue. I couldn't find anything about a breed standard, but one article said they are always under four feet high. In general, I think the Black Bulls look longer-legged and are rangier than most Dexters, but I think there are a lot of similarities between them. And I suppose, living in semi-salt marshes which are flooded most of the year, I guess it's not surprising that they are pretty rangy--and long-legged, too! Guess it keeps them out of the water a bit. But looking at your map, Patti, it struck me that the Viking ship routes go right to the Camargue, so I thought this was an interesting correlation to your theory. They have been there since Roman times, when they were mentioned in some writings. Some have theorized that they may even be descended from aurochs, but that's not the predominant theory. Anyway, I wish I could have brought my Tsar here! I sometimes look at our cattle and think how happy he'd have been here--and we even get flooded occasionally! I'm sure he'd wonder about the red and the lack of horns, but I think he'd have felt right at home. Btw, he looked a lot like the horse in this photo. ETA: I looked up the photographer, Hans Silvester, but couldn't find any photos he took of the cattle. I did, however, find this video which features the cattle from about 3:33 to 4:45. This video (in French, sorry) shows the horses working the cattle for the first almost 2 minutes. Maybe it'll give you all some fun ideas! Or not! Herding the cattle looks kinda fun and not too bad in the photos, until you check out this video! Those Black Bulls of Camargue definitely don't have Dexter temperaments!
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