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Post by legendrockranch on Jan 24, 2015 18:05:11 GMT -5
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zephyrhillsusan
member
Caught Dexteritis in Dec. 2009. Member of this forum since Oct. 2013.
Posts: 1,502 
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Post by zephyrhillsusan on Jan 24, 2015 19:29:27 GMT -5
Thanks for that really fascinating article, Barb. I won't get to all the links tonight, probably, because we're just about to sit down to dinner. We still eat like Europeans!  That article was particularly interesting to me in light of the Holstein bull, Toystory, recently coming onto my horizon. All humor from the hilarious column aside, can you imagine how the Holstein breed could have been decimated if Toystory, who sired 500,000 calves, had carried a lethal defect? Anyway, I'd comment more, but my family is clamoring to eat! |
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Post by ssimons on Jan 24, 2015 23:51:18 GMT -5
I've read, re-read, and read again those articles. Traditional wisdom has it that heterosis is a good thing for the herd and the more you mix it up the better, as long as you keep building on the qualities of the original foundation animals. And for the most part, when one is raising most all of a season's calves for market as quickly as possible, only keeping a few of the very best for replacements, that philosophy served ranchers fairly well, albeit hiding some recessive detrimental faults.
Breeding to get the best breeding stock animals possible, and I realize the articles are promoting the concepts for production herds as well, seems to call for a modified approach in their opinion. I follow the logic, but immediately a million questions popped up. Foremost among them is the character issues involved when a homo polled,red and A2 animal should be culled and gets sold instead. Another question on culling comes to mind, culling to where? The freezer, or someone else's herd?
I have read posts on this board by a couple of producers that appear to be using some, if not all, of these management criteria. Patti and Kirk/Matt come to mind . Perhaps they could elaborate on their results and experience. I have read Patti's culling criteria, and it is pretty strict, but practical. And Kirk has some pretty strict criteria as posted on this board as well. I think that implementing a management style as discussed in the articles, especially the third one, would take more than a rudimentary understanding of genetics, and a little harder hearts when it came time to cull a favorite animal.
I think I'm going to go read them again.
Thanks Barb!
Ssimons Simons Brothers Livestock
Magna , Utah
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Post by kansasdexters on Jan 25, 2015 2:25:51 GMT -5
Culling means processing for beef in our herd. We won't sell an animal as registered breeding stock to another breeder, if we wouldn't want that animal as breeding stock in our own herd. No excuses, no exceptions.
Patti
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Post by midhilldexters on Jan 25, 2015 6:46:45 GMT -5
Does anyone know (maybe Kirk) how big of a herd someone needs to start line breeding and closing their herd to any outcrosses? In other words how much genetic diversity is recommended to start with?
Carol K
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Post by Julie on Jan 25, 2015 8:18:08 GMT -5
This is a great thread! I am following with interest. I will read the articles later. I have been asked by several potential Dexter owners where the line is between line breeding and inbreeding. As a biologist, I always say that it is line breeding when it "works" and inbreeding when it doesn't! But at the same time I like the question of how much genetic diversity is needed prior to closing a herd. Also, I am fascinated by all the breeders' different breeding criteria and which ones are actually strict enough to beef cows that aren't up to par. Looking forward to reading more of this discussion as I am preparing to make some choices about my herd...thanks!
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Post by kansasdexters on Jan 25, 2015 10:05:16 GMT -5
Carol,
A small herd of 10 to 15 quality cows, that are kept for an extended period of time, and selectively bred, with their offspring properly culled or chosen as replacements in the herd, can be used to establish an outstanding herd. Each cow can produce 10 to 12 (or more) offspring in her lifetime. If the "next generation" bulls are chosen from the maternal line that proves out to have the docility, vigor, high fertility, calving ease, excellent udders, excellent conformation, excellent disposition, and adaptation to its environment (i.e. "Bull Mothers"), then these desirable traits can be "fixed" within the herd in a few generations.
We use genetic testing to help us identify which calves have the most desired production traits, such as Beta Casein type (A2/A2), Kappa Casein type (B/B), Beta Lactoglobulin type (B/B), beef tenderness traits, beef marbling traits, docility, etc. We also test parentage (Sire and Dam Qualified), PHA, Chondrodysplasia, and color genotype. These are tools that help us select which offspring have the genes we want to increase in frequency in our herd.
Our next herd sire is Wakarusa ACB Nico. He is homozygous A2 Beta Casein (A2/A2), homozygous "B" variant Kappa Casein (B/B), homozygous "B" variant Beta Lactoglobulin (B/B) - all very desirable production traits. Nico is the son of Wakarusa BRR Nina, a cow with an excellent breeding record, excellent health record, great conformation, proper size, and wonderful disposition. His sire (Ace of Clove Brook) is almost 12 years old and still breeding 15 to 20 cows each year (he has demonstrated longevity, vigor, high fertility). Nico will be bred to his half sisters (daughters of Ace of Clove Brook, out of different dams). That is an example of how we do line breeding to improve the next generation in our herd.
Patti
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Post by midhilldexters on Jan 25, 2015 15:10:46 GMT -5
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Post by kansasdexters on Jan 25, 2015 16:35:53 GMT -5
Carol,
We are following a similar plan with our Kerry herd, because there just aren't many Kerry bulls to choose from. We started with Kelmscott Seamus, and his son, LTR Kody (Kelmscott Seamus x Mona Island Skya), an unrelated cow (Mona Bashful Brenna), and three Kelmscott Seamus daughters (North Plain Siobhan, LTR Moya, and LTR Branwen). North Plain Siobhan was AI-bred to an imported Kerry bull (Newbridge Gerard) and produced a heifer, Heamour NEW Seana. We used LTR Kody to breed Mona Bashful Brenna, North Plain Siobhan, and Heamour NEW Seana. Brenna produced a heifer, Wakarusa LTRK Karma, North Plain Siobhan produced a heifer, Wakarusa LTRK Keva, and Heamour NEW Seana produced a bull calf, Wakarusa LTRK Shea. We then bred Wakarusa LTRK Shea to Mona Bashful Brenna and LTR Moya. Both of them produced heifer calves, so we bred Brenna and Moya back to Shea and we are hoping for our next bull and he will be used to breed Wakarusa LTRK Keva (LTR Kody x North Plain Siobhan) and Wakarusa WRS Moona (Wakarusa LTRK Shea x LTR Moya). Their heifer calves will then be AI bred back to Kelmscott Seamus and we will continue that breeding line. In the process, we have also culled heavily, removing North Plain Siobhan, her son Wakarusa LTRK Kane, Heamour NEW Seana's son Wakarusa LTRK Sam, Brenna's daughter Wakarusa LTRK Keely, and all of LTR Moya's offspring until she produced Wakarusa WRS Moona (her best calf to date).
Patti
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Post by midhilldexters on Jan 25, 2015 16:57:27 GMT -5
So you are line breeding to Seamus, but then you also have an outcross to your AI bull Gerard. Will you still outcross down the road or not?
As an aside, was Kody ever at Shauns? I saw a Kerry bull at her place once, same name. He was the first Kerry bull I had ever seen.
Carol
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Post by kansasdexters on Jan 25, 2015 17:02:14 GMT -5
Yes, LTR Kody was at Shaun's. She sold him to Richard Grossman, with the rest of her Kerry herd. Here is a short video that Richard made of LTR Kody: www.youtube.com/watch?v=1JKzCW4ECowWe have semen for four registered Kerry bulls, Kelmscott Seamus, Plimoth Plantation Killian, Kelmscott Guiness, and Wakarusa LTRK Shea. Semen is available now for several other Kerry bulls, so we have the opportunity to observe what others are producing and determine if we want to introduce it. When we started, we didn't have much information on any of the bulls that were available at the time. Seven years of firsthand practice makes a big difference in experience and in understanding of what is needed and what is available to achieve it. Patti |
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Post by cddexter on Jan 27, 2015 1:01:44 GMT -5
Patti, it's expensive but not prohibitively, why not bring in one of Raymonde's bulls, either live or as semen? She has almost 150 years of selective breeding and her animals, as you may remember, were lovely. c.
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Post by RedRidge on Jan 27, 2015 7:21:05 GMT -5
Yes, I breed my dairy sheep similar to this. I had the luxury of multiple rams when I had hundreds, and have used only 1 ram for 5 years now. There are simply very few true quality dairy rams in the US that meet all my criteria. So, I had a couple collected for emergencies and have been tightly line breeding ever since. It's worked great, but remember, I was fortunate enough to start with the best of the best. After years of breeding and culling many thousands, getting down to only a dozen of the best was easy compared to simply going out and buying stock. Your good AND your bad because extremely exaggerated, so you better not have bad you can't live with. |
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Post by kansasdexters on Jan 27, 2015 8:20:20 GMT -5
Hi C. Importing Kerry semen or live animals from Ireland is hampered right now due to the constraints imposed by the USDA because of the Schmallenberg virus in the EU. www.dairycrossbreeding.com/usda-revised-schmallenberg-virus-restrictions-for-semen-from-eu-countries-following-eu-legislation/There are only a couple of Kerry bulls in Ireland that have been collected (prior to June 1, 2011) and that are even eligible for export to the United States. One of them is Newbridge Gerard, and we have already introduced that one into our herd via Heamour NEW Seana (Newbridge Gerard x North Plain Siobhan) and her son, Wakarusa LTRK Shea (LTR Kody x Heamour NEW Seana). Miss Hilliard has not collected any Kerry bulls for quite some time. If there is an opportunity to import some high quality Kerry bull semen in the future, we may pursue that option. Patti |
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Post by midhilldexters on Jan 27, 2015 11:41:40 GMT -5
Sheri I've recently started it with my small flock of commercial hair sheep. I started with Katahdin and then bought a Dorper ram and am going from there. Fun project to see what you get.
In looking at say the Woodmagic herd, older pics of Beryl's cattle were taller and heavier set than the more recent pics. Notably size came down quite dramatically when you look at Hedgehog, and some of the recent pics in her book. It made me think they had a more "stunted" look as opposed to an animal that was shorter but without the stunted look. Now that may be just what I saw, but there must be a fine line where I wouldn't want to lose "type" for other so called benefits.
I can look at some breeders animals and what I see is no type, they are all different, when I look at pedigrees and what they are doing I see no line breeding at all.
Just my observations, but to me, when I see a batch of calves I want to see peas in a pod, obviously I am talking body style here not color. The closer I get to "setting type" the happier I am with my breeding plan. That's the fun of it all for me I guess.
Carol K
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