This is disturbing..

[marion]

healthimpactnews.com/2015/government-attacks-small-family-farm-in-schenectady-county-new-york/

[lonecowhand]

This really IS disturbing, really burns me up, like; there's no real criminals to chase? I hope this is just a misguided local snitch and not a trend. The Dept. of Agriculture has made it clear it wants you to Get big or Get out! I hope folks get behind this small farmer.

[littlecowfl]

I am sympathetic for the farmer, however, the obvious needs to be pointed out here. Whatever business you get into, you need to know the laws for your area and comply to keep yourself out of trouble. For example, if you open a shop without a business license or without providing proper breaks for employees, you're wrong. I think sometimes when laws involve animals, there is a lot of crying foul on the internet and raising people emotions and not enough common sense being applied to the situation. It's everyone's responsibility to know the laws in their own states and counties regarding the minimum standards of care. If you disagree, you should change the law first, than adjust your practices.

I could understand laws existing for animals up north that require shelters or a windbreaks and tank heaters to keep water from freezing solid. I know the ranches I worked on out west had at least windbreaks for their cow-calf herds and they had some heavy duty heaters to keep tanks ice free. A popular myth that was debunked many, many, times, was that horses can eat snow to get their water. The vets all agreed that horses need melted water to prevent impaction colic. There might be studies indicating that pastured animals in good condition do fine during the winter , but showing the cops a study that disagrees with the written law doesn't help you. They are there to enforce the law; not change it.

I know my opinion will be unpopular here, but that wouldn't be the first time.

[zephyrhillsusan]

The point that struck me was that some of the town residents were without fresh running water for a week due to the freezing temperatures. Why doesn't the government take care of that mess?! I'm afraid this man's only "crime" is to be a successful, small farmer.

[RedRidge]

Well two things that jump out at me in these posts. Yes I agree there is probably more than meets the eye, but freezing water when you have no power was a problem all across the eastern half of the US for weeks. If it hadn't been for our local volunteer fire department here, we would have had no water that wasn't frozen.
Second... "why doesn't the government take care of that mess"... hmmm. Maybe because it's not the government's responsibility to keep its citizens warm, fed and watered. If none of our citizens were dependent on the government for anything then we wouldn't have so many of the problems we do. I take full responsibility for the fact that we ran out of water those 5 days we were without power. It was our fault. Not the government, not the utility company's, not even mother nature. But you can bet it won't happen again.

[lonecowhand]

While I agree that it is not governments problem to deal with every crisis situation, I also don't believe that government should have the authority to assess an individuals' ability to care for his animals DURING the crisis. The officials could wait and see if proper care resumes once the crisis ends. They aren't so good at handling crisis, either, I've seen.
I imagine that a whole bunch of people weren't providing their critters what the humane society (or whoever makes those guidelines) feels is proper care during the time they had no power or water.

[marion]

One of the comments below that news item was written by a person who knew the man and what a good caregiver he is. Many people in areas that get severe winter temperatures do not have automatic or heated waterers for livestock. We are intimately connected with the needs of our animals and the timing of fresh water. Ruminants are wise, and will not tank up on gallons of cold water with night coming on, and they need to consume a certain amount of feed before they are ready for a good drink. Timing in extreme cold is everything. Livestock owners know how and when to provide fresh water, as shown by the stock thriving in the cold (and heat), reproducing and milking. Where there is natural water, cows know where they can often access that water depending on where a little spring keeps a small drinking hole open under the snow that may have blown over it. My original and elderly cow knew just where to pock some foot holes into the ice at the edge of a creek, that would fill and become little water holes for everyone. As weather conditions change, so also does the strategy. Undoubtedly there are people who do not look after their stock, but the vast majority are out there 365 days a year, and thinking of the welfare of their stock 24/7 ..marion

[zephyrhillsusan]

Why doesn't the government take care of that mess?!

This was actually meant ironically, as in "Why doesn't the government worry about the humans--to whom they are contracted to supply water and power--instead of bothering the farmer?"  However, since the local government would probably not approve occupancy of any house built without running water and electricity, and since many utilities who bill people for using water and electricity are controlled by local governments (in the current structure of our society), it would be the government's responsibility in this case to get water running for their citizens.  While I'm all for less government in our lives, I doubt we're going to be able to go back to the days when each family is responsible to dig their own well.

[karenp]

Lower Delaware

We have our own well. If public water ever comes through our area we may be required to hook up at our expense. At that point I think it would be the government's responsibility to fix it as they would have taken away our ability to provide for ourselves. While the animals in question were in good condition I don't think "sorry the power is out, no water for you for days" is the right answer either.

[kansasdexters]

Public water supply is regulated by our government (laws, inspections, monitoring requirements, operator certifications, etc.), but it is not provided by our government. In rural areas, Rural Water Districts (RWDs) typically provide potable water (tested, disinfected, meeting specific water quality standards, and minimum water pressure standards) to customers that purchase (or own) a water meter from the RWD. People that have private wells are not required to hook on to a RWD, but if they do not have a private water supply that meets minimum potable water standards, it may affect their ability to mortgage their property or to sell their property as residential property.

When there is a potential for power failure, there is a need for redundancy to assure continued water supply (for fire protection, as well as for potable use). Public water supplies have back-up generators (to restore power temporarily) or connections to neighboring water systems, to assure continued water supply with minimal disruption or delay. Private residences that depend on their own wells for potable water, must provide their own redundancy -- typically a back-up generator to restore power temporarily, until full power is restored. In a crisis, snow and ice can be melted and put in tanks to provide water to livestock (and for nonpotable uses for people)and people can drink bottled water, until a reliable and safe water supply can be restored.

I find it very hard to believe that if the authorities showed up at this guy's farm and his animals were in good shape and being cared for, that the authorities would have prosecuted him. If the animals had been in imminent danger, the authorities would have removed them from the property. So there's probably more to this story than what the article is reporting.

[cddexter]

Two cents' worth:

Penny one: I'm at the end of the hydro line, with a separate transformer, so when the power goes out, I'm the very last person to get power restored. I can see lights on in the neighbours well ahead of lights on in my own place. When I complained to the hydro company, they said human needs preceded animal needs. My response was humans can get in the car and drive to a gas station, restaurant, etc, and get water to take away. Was I supposed to herd my cows down the road and line up buckets at the gas station 1/4 mile away? Smarmy answer was providing water to stock was my responsibility, and I should buy a generator big enough to run the well.

Oh well.

Penny two: my land is well draining, and can be accessed 365/year. Where stock has to pass through a gateway from the winter pasture into the barnyard, constant traffic and nearly constant rain makes the gateway soupy. Add gravel? Sure, did that, but then it gets soupy again where the gravel stops. but there is still high traffic. Extend the gravel? Yes...but this has a finite boundary. Had a townie neighbour who complained to the SPCA my animals were standing in mud. SPCA came out, bristling with suspicion, so I showed them the fields, all dry, covered in wet grass, the 4" of sloppy muddy manure in the gravel laneway from one pasture into the west side of the barn, Ah HAH! Gotcha! So we all trouped into the house, I called my regular vet, told him I had SPCA standing next to me as I made the call , and would he talk to them about how I treated my animals. He gave her an earful (I could hear him even with the received pressed to her head). He told her I probably provided better care than any of his other clients, and not to be stupid. Mid-winter everyone had mud issues, and walking through a fbitof mud for a distance of maybe 15 feet from dry pasture to dry yard wasn't an issue. Boy was she burned! 'Well, if a veterinarian says it's okay, I am forced to take his word for it', but she sure wanted to argue. Treated me as though I was getting away with something she knew was wrong but was powerless to fix.


In my experience, with several other issues, too, a lot of the SPCA people are well meaning, may or may not have some training, are vested with authority, but are generally clueless about real farming practices. I had another complaint (same townie who was a neat freak) because the old hay/manure had built up in the barn over the course of the winter. SPCA figured oh m'gawd, those poor animals are lying in manure! I should be cleaning everything out daily. Had to explain that hay and manure in winter provided a warmer surface to lie on, and the cows were perfectly happy, and would lie there by choice. Showed them the cows all lying in a circle on the hay from the round bale feeder, and in the barn, and not one lying on cold ground or bare concrete. Nuts.

Not saying some kind of shelter in very cold climes is a bad idea, or not necessary, but the shelter is more to cut the wind or driving rain. Stock do just fine with fresh water a couple of times a day. Continuous available water is a recent human invention and it's become more profitable than heroin. Look how north americans these days can't be more than a belt loop away from water during all waking moments. As kids, we'd be gone for hours, come back for lunch or dinner and tank up with water then. We were fine .

cheers, c.

[lonecowhand]

Yup,Carol. In my "pioneer" days, I lived as the last electric service on a 3 mile dirt road, last transformer on the line. The norm was if there was lightning , we lost our power. No problem, the water tank tower held a week or more of water so we wouldn't fret, just fill the big buckets and heat it on the woodstove for baths. Someone with a phone (pre-cellphone) down the line would eventually call the power company and we'd be back in business.

One winter storm the power went out as usual, we went a week, then two, and some waiting, waiting... finally slogged down to the store and payphone(!?)and called the power company, who said no one had ever called about a power outage!
They sent out a repair truck to investigate, and it turned out lightning had struck our transformer ONLY, and as the last on the line , no one knew! So we went a couple of weeks without power for nothing... Doh!

Really only sharing this because, as you know, if you are prepared, you can take these things in stride.
I miss those days! Bill

[marion]

The Case of the Limping Boar

www.betterfarming.com/archive/2003/nov03-3.htm#limping

In October of 2003, Palmer was charged with failing to care for animals in his care. The charges were dropped in September 2004, just a few days before he was due to face his accusers in court. The crown attorney refused to give an explanation.

Palmer says fighting the charges to that point cost him more than $10,000. "If I had known how much it was going to cost me, I wouldn't have fought it either. $20,000 is a lot of money and how much further ahead am I? It's not right that anyone should have to spend that much money," Palmer told Better Farming. BF

[zephyrhillsusan]

That was hideous, reading about how the "Humane" Society and policeman shot that boar 17 times, trying to kill it. Stuff like this makes me shudder. I hate to say it, but you give power to small-minded, poorly-trained, half-educated people--and that's the kind of fiasco you get.

cddexter, your stories make me glad we're on a dead-end road surrounded by hunting preserve.  You've also given us one more good reason to have a good working relationship with a good vet!

[hollydzie]

That was hideous, reading about how the "Humane" Society and policeman shot that boar 17 times, trying to kill it. Stuff like this makes me shudder. I hate to say it, but you give power to small-minded, poorly-trained, half-educated people--and that's the kind of fiasco you get.


My thoughts exactly, to little brains, too much power, I happened to volunteer at our local SPCA and I hate to say this but the majority of the "officers" were wanna be cops. I was truly disgusting to see them in action.