A PDCA bull that I like and belongs to a friend.

[cathylee]

A 4 year old black polled PDCA registered bull I am interested in breeding my ADCA heifer #036757 to is #207434 (George).  I have offered to pay for genotype but suspect that there is no way to sire qualify this bull for ADCA registration.  He has a nice temperament and I have seen two of his Dexter heifer calves from this year and they look good and not at all skittish.  My friend who already owned a couple dexter cows bought George's small herd last year when illness made selling them a necessity for the prior owner.

I'd love to use this bull but suspect I could not ADCA register his heifer calf from my ADCA heifer.  I have always steered bull calves.  I may use him anyway.  I sent an email to the prior owner of the bull's sire.  I wait to hear but given the sires dates I doubt that a genotype exists.    

Am I correct that a calf from George (born 2011) could not be registered with the ADCA?  I assume it could be registered with the PDCA?

I am otherwise interested in Glenn Land Mr. Fire Man by AI.  My heifer, Georgia (red, A2A2, heterozygous polled) is warming up to us but is a bit excitable.  So I thought a first calf might go better with a bull.         

[cddexter]

Wouldn't your question be better answered by contacting the ADCA and seeing if there is something that can be done?

I know a lot of people come here for answers, but all we can offer is an opinion..

There may be other animals in the pedigree who do qualify, and his dna type can be verified through checking relatives.

It may cost a bit, but if you like him, and can get him qualified, he'll be worth more when you sell him on.

I'd get hold of the ADCA Pedigree Committee, provide details, state your case, and see what they can do for you

Good luck .c.

[zephyrhillsusan]

I do know that the ADCA and PDCA have a cooperative arrangement for registration, but I don't know how it works. Your best bet would be to email Jill Delaney, the Registrar, with the information you've given us.  Her contact info is on the ADCA officers page.  She's very helpful and friendly, and if there's any way to do it she will know what to do.

[cathylee]

Susan, thanks, I have sent an email.

And I got a very quick response.  I will get this bull and his bull calf genotyped.  It will be helpful for me and for my friend as we make final decisions for this year and next.  She was told he was non carrier but I'll get those tests as well.  The bull calf is for sell now.    

[bruff64]

Cathylee, have you been told that you will be able to register this bull?

[cathylee]

I will not be able to register George with the ADCA but if I genotype him a calf could be registered with ADCA.

Correction:  I could register this bull with ADCA but will not bother as I have the genotype on file and that is all I need to register his calves.  

[cathylee]

Got the genetics results back on this bull. Fortunately he is

BD1-chondro negative,
PHA negative.

A2/A2

No color variety here. negative for dun and red genes

On the large side for a dexter (I think) so a bull/steer calf would be nice but with the A2A2 sort of hoping for a heifer as my heifer is also A2A2.

[zephyrhillsusan]

So, cathylee, did you buy him or just use him for breeding? And has Georgia warmed up to you?

[cathylee]

He belongs to a friend. I paid for the genotyping etc in exchange for the services. I may use him again next year. She will probably sell him at that point. I have some concern about udder and it will be a longtime before I see that. I think his heifer from last year will be my first chance to check that out. I'll always be able to use him next year if I choose. I know two cows from the same line bred herd and they have good if not spectacular udders. Teats in particular are all appropriate shape and length and no obvious suspension problems. But George himself is still a bit of a question in that area.

Georgia can be fine with me walking up and scratching her from time to time and other times she heads the other way when she sees me coming. I would describe her as docile but skittish. She does great when she decides to walk right up to me. Her sire is extremely easygoing. I may see if I can breed her back to her sire. Although George, this years bull, is calm and pleasant I'd like a few more color genes rolling around (as in dice) just for the fun of it. And George is larger than Bracken Georgia's sire. Bracken is however just as beefy. I would probably like to avoid going with a larger bull more than these two years. Otherwise, homozygous polled would be a nice thing. Bracken and George are both heterozygous polled.

I'm glad to get his progeny into the ADCA registry because he has lines from two old herds local to the area that are gone or gone from ADCA, Jewel Basin, Mission Mtn. and Rockin.

My chances of A2A2, heifer, and polled seemed low until I got that report. Now just heifer and polled in dispute and I guess phenotypic polled is 75%.

My husband would probably not want to have a bull around. However if I get a bull calf with the right temperament and polled I may try to put off making him a steer. It would be nice to see how it develops.

[cathylee]

Susan, I was surprised to see that you get one Chrondroplasia result when you check the box and then they send you a report with BD1 and BD2 chondroplasia and say the BD2 is not requested. Is this a gene that is not generally found in this country or not in Dexters?

Oops! I see the answer in another thread.  Yes not in US Dexters.  

And have you ever heard that there is a difference in the eyelashes in horned vs polled.  

Check out this paper and the picture

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3661542/

[zephyrhillsusan]

I had never heard that, cathylee.  I'll have to go out and compare the eyelashes of our one horned vs. polled animals.  I'm still reading the article, however, this did jump out at me:

(based on the 63 cases of spontaneous mutations that we identified in French bovine populations in the last ten years; Capitan et al., unpublished data)

Too bad they didn't publish; it would be interesting to know exactly what kind of spontaneous mutations they have identified.

On a completely different note, something that bothers me about this study is that they purposely impregnated cull cows and then slaughtered them to examine their fetuses.  That seems a rather cavalier attitude to the lives of these animals and their unborn calves.  I realize it was all done in the name of advancing science, and I imagine I'm strictly in the minority here, but it bothers me.    Medical research to cure a disease affecting cattle is one thing, but that's not what this is.  How earth-shattering is this knowledge, and was it worth using these unfortunate cows as tools to purposely create lives, just to kill them both for the sake of their calves' DNA?  Just because we *can*, does that mean we *should*?

[cathylee]

I guess they could suggest that it might lead to a therapy that would stop the growth of horns that is more humane than present dehorning.

I know someone who is going to keep a heifer with the bull for a while but still plans on culling her. I probably wouldn't do that. I'd rather keep a recently bred cow with the bull.  

We rarely have a weaned steer because I have made a habit of making a deal for someone buying a heifer to take a steer and split the meat with us.  That way they get company for the heifer and we get meat without the hay bill.   

I was just trying to find out a little bit more about what was known about the two main european polled genes. I thought the eyelash thing was sort of fun information. My polled heifer does have quite long lashes. I'll have to go to someone else herd to compare horned to polled eyelashes. Do they help prevent pink eye?

[zephyrhillsusan]

cathylee, I should clarify that it didn't bother me that you shared the article, and I didn't mean any criticism of you at all in what I said.   I'm sorry if it seemed like that.

I agree with you, if I was going to cull a heifer, I wouldn't keep her with a bull and let her get bred. I think a bred cow or a steer makes a better companion, and I'm almost sure the bull would vote for the cow!

My guess would be that eyelashes help keep air-borne debris, rain and other stuff out of the eye. You got me curious, and when I looked it up, Wikipedia says that in addition to the above, they also function like whiskers by their sensitivity to touch, warning that something is near the eye. I wouldn't have thought of that. It is interesting to think there'd be a connection between two such vastly different things--horns and eyelashes.

[marion]

The one polled cow I used to own, did have a double row of eyelashes :-) ..marion