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Post by jennyacres on Jul 16, 2015 20:01:55 GMT -5
While I'm not new to cattle, I am new to the Dexter breed, and to breeding registered animals in general, hence my ignorance on this topic. We have 2, maybe 3, registries for the breed. This situation is a pain in the butt at least, and it seems to me to be a detraction of the breed. There seems to be little or no discussion about the benefits or woes of this situation (well at least not in public forums, and I'm not yet privy to the private discussions on the matter), so here is a plea to have a rational discussion. Lets discuss how much sense it makes to have several registries, and lets discuss some benefits/weaknesses of the various institutions at play. If little benefit can be had from maintaining more than one registry, perhaps an open discussion can help us forge a better way forward. Note, I'm ignorant of both the history and the political nuances behind the various registries, but it seems clear this is a potentially volatile subject. Lets please try to keep the conversation cordial with all parties maintaining an open mind and thick skin.
And, I suppose I'll start the discussion with a direct question as an attempt at maintaining some focus. The ADCA seems to be the front running organization and won't be going anywhere any time soon. Why the need for alternatives or competitors? Note, this question is truly one founded in ignorance. There may or may not be a need for alternatives, so lets hear the arguments.
(I hope I don't regret this)
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Post by kansasdexters on Jul 17, 2015 7:54:48 GMT -5
If the American Dexter Cattle Association (ADCA) could be all things to all Dexter owners and breeders, then there would not be other groups formed or operated. Discontent with one thing or another in the ADCA was the incentive for the formation and continuation of the alternatives. Without the active participation and continuing support of owners and breeders, the alternatives would cease to exist.
Patti
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zephyrhillsusan
member
Caught Dexteritis in Dec. 2009. Member of this forum since Oct. 2013.
Posts: 1,502 
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Post by zephyrhillsusan on Jul 18, 2015 8:29:43 GMT -5
We started in Dexters after the PDCA split off from the ADCA, so we weren't privy to the politics of the situation. Our first cow was dual-registered when we bought her so we maintained our memberships for a couple years and kept an open mind. That, of course, entitled us to correspondence from both registries. Before long, due to communications we read from the PDCA (NOTE: nothing negative was said by the ADCA, so there was no influence from it at all on our decision) we became disenchanted with the PDCA, and when it was time to register our first calf, we went with the ADCA.
Still in the spirit of cordial communication, I will simply say that what I have read from Legacy people seems disparaging of the bloodlines we appreciate, so I have not sought involvement there, although I certainly respect Legacy's commitment to the Dexter breed.
I will also add that cordiality is important to me to enable discussions, which are necessary for education and understanding. What I have seen and read from the ADCA, for the most part, does a good job of maintaining respectful cordiality. On the few occasions where something was published in the Bulletin that I felt strayed from that, I have communicated my concerns to the leadership.
The ADCA is not perfect, of course, no organization is. However, I have found it to be responsive to the membership, and that is a huge selling point for me. I have emailed, written and talked to at least four of the current officers and have found them to be very respectful and willing to listen and communicate. This is an organization I can work within and for.
We began testing our animals at TAMU, then moved them to VGL when it was approved as an official lab, and we do all our testing there now. We register them with the ADCA. This system is simple and works well for me (I do all the testing and paperwork).
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Post by Cascade Meadows Farm - Kirk on Jul 19, 2015 13:08:18 GMT -5
Valid registries must have these two key components:
#1: Valid registries MUST have a decision-making board, elected by members.
#2: Valid registries MUST NOT be dependent on an individual registrar (person managing the records). The membership-elected board should be able to fire and replace a registrar at will, and that should pose no problem to the registry.
Bottom Line: The ADCA is the ONLY American Dexter registry that has BOTH of those above two key items. The ADCA is also the largest and longest-lived registry by far and is the ONLY registry that will survive (a minor breed can only support one registry in the long haul). The others won't last much longer, and I'm sure that when those struggling registries go under, the ADCA will welcome all the individuals back into the ADCA with open arms, where they can run for director positions if they wish, and they can help elect the board members of their choosing.
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Post by dexterfarm on Jul 20, 2015 10:21:54 GMT -5
Legacy has the best registry. If not for Legacy you would not have the option that you do now of using UCD for testing. I think we need all 3. If You have choices it makes them all better. Choose the one or more than one that works best for you. If there were only one then you take what you get and you are stuck with it like it or not.
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Post by kansasdexters on Jul 20, 2015 14:16:26 GMT -5
Mike,
Several of us have had accounts at UC-Davis for years and Legacy didn't create that option. UC-Davis had been offering cattle genetic testing for years before Legacy ever started testing there. Legacy is a testing service (uses UC-Davis VGL as its test lab) and it is a privately run genotype database, but it is not an internationally recognized Dexter cattle breed registry. Unfortunately, Dexter breeders that have used Legacy have found out the hard way that some of their "Legacy registered" Dexters aren't eligible for registration in the ADCA. The requirements for registration simply are not the same; and Legacy falls short, since it only requires a genotype of the animal and it does not require sire or dam qualification for registration in the Legacy genotype database.
Patti
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zephyrhillsusan
member
Caught Dexteritis in Dec. 2009. Member of this forum since Oct. 2013.
Posts: 1,502
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Post by zephyrhillsusan on Jul 20, 2015 17:01:56 GMT -5
Here's the answer I was given about registering Legacy animals with the ADCA: In order to register an animal with the ADCA, it must have both parents registered with a recognized Dexter registry. (The PDCA has worked with the ADCA to reach a cooperative agreement for registrations.) For reference, see Cascade Meadows Farm - Kirk's post on what constitutes a registry, as well as Patti's comment above. And yes, some people who have bought Legacy "registered" animals have been disappointed to find out that they cannot be registered with the ADCA because while there is a testing trail of genotypes, there might not be the trail of actual registrations if the parents were not actually registered with a recognized registry. What's important is the whole database-history of registrations from distant ancestors down to your current animal that you get with the ADCA registry. |
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Post by dexterfarm on Jul 20, 2015 17:03:13 GMT -5
well that is an interesting spin but not exactly true.
Yes UCD is separate but was made popular with Dexter breeders by Legacy. If it wasn't for ADCA members going through Legacy/UCD to get there testing done ADCA would not have switched. ADCA members who now use UCD owe it to Legacy for that one.
Yes Legacy is an international registry. It is only ADCA that has any issue with Legacy. I would like to support both Legacy and ADCA but I and others are about fed up with the ADCA constantly trying to stand in the way of Legacy. If it goes on much longer I and others are just going to say the hell with ADCA and just register with Legacy.
Legacy has always had higher standards than the ADCA. Genotype has always been required and parentage is done when ever it is possible. ADCA does not require parentage and just this year voted to require genotype but not parentage. Looks like ADCA is the one who is behind.
So when you say "Legacy falls short, since it only requires a genotype of the animal and it does not require sire or dam qualification for registration in the Legacy genotype database."
I think you meant to say ADCA falls short. must have been a typo on your part.
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Post by kansasdexters on Jul 20, 2015 17:31:26 GMT -5
Mike,
Legacy has provided testing services for international customers and has Dexters from other countries in its genotype database -- but those animals are registered in their own country's Dexter cattle registries, they don't consider Legacy to be their registry, it is only a service that they used to get testing done at UC-Davis VGL at a discount.
The issue with the Legacy genotype database trying to act as a Dexter breed registry is that it only requires that the sire and dam be registered with either the PDCA or the ADCA (or a foreign Dexter registry) and a genotype of the animal is done at UC-Davis VGL through Legacy testing services, that's it. The ADCA requires the sire genotype to be on file with the ADCA (and this has been an ADCA requirement since January 1, 2009) and the PDCA and Legacy do not have this requirement for registration.
So the situation comes up where the sire is a PDCA registered Dexter and it isn't genotyped, or if it is genotyped, the sire's genotype is not submitted to the ADCA for entry into the ADCA genotype database. When this happens, the calf that is being submitted for ADCA registration isn't eligible for registration in the ADCA. That's what I'm referring to when I say that the Legacy genotype database falls short of meeting the ADCA registration requirements. These are just the facts of the situation as it has existed since 2009.
Patti
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Post by RedRidge on Jul 20, 2015 18:20:55 GMT -5
I use Legacy to register all my calves because it's one stop shopping with easy customer service. I deal with one person and get all the testing results and the calf registered. Then, I register breeding stock only with the ADCA about 6 months to a year later. Why? In my opinion it's not financially advantageous to register meat animals (steers or heifers for slaughter) with the ADCA, it's just a waste of money. A small part of what determines a bull calves consideration as a bull is the results of his genetic testing. Those results are received in the first week of birth and used as a piece of the "to steer or not to steer" puzzle months later.
So, legacy handles all my testing and has all my animals that are breeding animals and those considered as breeding prospects. Those who I know will be meat (both heifers and steers ) are never even tested or registered anywhere.
For those that argue that an animals calving history is not in a public database, I keep impeccable records which are provided with the sale of each animal. But if anyone is ever curious about the calving history of an animal I own, is be glad to share. Public databases are only as accurate as those who maintain them and I prefer to trust my own records.
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jamshundred
member
Help build the Legacy Dexter Cattle "Forever" Genotype database
Posts: 289
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Post by jamshundred on Jul 21, 2015 9:25:10 GMT -5
Dexter owners ! ! You are invited! Browse the Legacy files and the World files of the Legacy Dexter Cattle Registry. The first genotype and currently the only genotype registry in the Western hemisphere. The Legacy Registry is UNIQUE. Check out those WORLD ancestor files. Additions daily. The only registry with entries from the early Irish herdbooks and the early English herdbooks.
You may listen to the small group of naysayers on this group if you wish. . .or you may visit the Legacy Registry website to see your own extended pedigrees or for research ( as Kirk of Cascade does almost daily and Patti Adams has been known to do a bit of research of her own), and decide for yourself what registry has the easiest format, the most comprehensive ancestor files and a search engine with endless possibilities!
Sour grapes haven't stopped Legacy yet! It just keeps getting bigger and better!
WORLD Dexter owners, you are invited to add your genotyped Dexters to the Legacy database for a small fee of $10.00. WHAT A DEAL. Connect to those pedigrees you will find not find elsewhere. Irish herd book 1, English herd book 1 entries and entries from the teens, 20s and 30s all coonnected as fast as possible to their ancestors. Entries are added daily.
ADCA doesn't recognize Legacy? WHO CARES? Legacy hasn't needed ADCA to grow and become the dominant registry for research in the Dexter breed. Dictatorships come and then they GO! That ADCA cannot stand the competition isn't stopping the competition from Legacy becoming unique and special just like the Dexters and their owners that Legacy has worked for now for over a decade!
Legacy IS and HAS been looking out for you! Here's some of the ways:
Legacy set up the Dexter DNA database at UCD and encouraged owners to begin genotyping their Dexters! It took ADCA . . . . . FIVE years before they realized the value of that effort.
Legacy negotiated with the CEO of the A2 Corp ( with permission of UCD) and for the FIRST time in the world, individual cattle owners were able to test their cows ( any breed) for this casein when A2 agreed to make the test available outside of the commercial breeds. Another Legacy win for Dexter owners!
Legacy negotiated with the Australian patent holder of the Chondro test and Dr. Beever the patent holder for the PHA test and brought those tests to UCD, making the UCD lab the FIRST and ONLY lab at the time to offer all available Dexter tests at one location. NOTE: At this time, ADCA was still refusing to recognize UCD as a lab so the fact that ADCA doesn't recognize something usually means it is BETTER than what ADCA has to offer!)
Another Legacy win for Dexter owners!
Legacy negotiated prices at UCD that were LESS than HALF what owners were paying elsewhere, forcing other labs to drop their prices. Another win for Dexter owners!
Legacy did not need the approval of ADCA to make these innovative changes for Dexters and their owners, and the sad commentary is that while ADCA has been focusing on trying to stop Legacy, they could have shown some real leadership and partnered with Legacy to advance the interests of the breed and the owners. Lack of leadership and foresight!
Judy
PS. In response to MS. Adams. IF you look on this very board. . . . . . . . . . you will discover a thread where the idea for direct testing at contract prices with UCD first came to mind and was discussed by me as a resolution for owners caught between the Cothran lab, ( this is NOT a laboratory set up by the governing board of TAM) as you have been misled to believe by ADCA), *I* brought this idea to UCD and worked with the manager to implement it so that Dexter owners could, if they wished, control their testing and results. *I* did that. From day one Legacy has promoted the rights of owners for their samples and results, and this grew from the objection to the contract that ADCA signed with Dr. Cothran and Texas Agrilife which gave rights to the samples of ADCA owners for research of ANY type! There were NO stipulations in that contract that protected the rights of Dexter owners or their Dexters and a copy is available upon request)! LEGACY has fought for your rights time after time. NOW. . . .. YOU should be fighting for the rights of LEGACY. Are you going to permit ADCA to control your personal and business interests? If dictators and socialism is your baliwick then ONE entity is what you should support. . . . . if you support competition which brings positive changes. . . . . then YOU should be supporting Legacy. You should support CHOICE. . . .. because Legacy is a GOOD choice!
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Post by legendrockranch on Jul 21, 2015 11:40:57 GMT -5
I am SHOCKED!!!!!!!and pissed to say the least. Who gave you Legacy the right to list animals that I bred and owned that are registered with the ADCA and post them on the Legacy site? Added: Legacy hasn't needed ADCA to grow So much for not needing the ADCA, you just take from them and all of us without asking. How do live with yourself. Dexter owners you are invited to get ripped off by Legacy. Makes your whole spiel that you just made worthless. This type of thing is exactly why many of use have NEVER trusted you. Barb
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Post by RedRidge on Jul 21, 2015 15:21:47 GMT -5
Wow, I'm confused. I missed something and yet I'm not sure I really want to know what. :-O
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Post by lakeportfarms on Jul 21, 2015 15:40:02 GMT -5
I am SHOCKED!!!!!!!and pissed to say the least. Who gave you Legacy the right to list animals that I bred and owned that are registered with the ADCA and post them on the Legacy site? Added: Legacy hasn't needed ADCA to grow So much for not needing the ADCA, you just take from them and all of us without asking. How do live with yourself. Dexter owners you are invited to get ripped off by Legacy. Makes your whole spiel that you just made worthless. This type of thing is exactly why many of use have NEVER trusted you. Barb SHOCKING!!! Yeah, I'm sure that pedigrees are never taken from one registry and listed in another registry are they? Like this one from the DCS in England, and any number of others. I just picked the first one: dextercattle.org/pedigreedb/ponyweb.cgi?horse=EF7674&HorseName=woodmagic&Page=1&Sort=6 |
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Post by legendrockranch on Jul 21, 2015 15:50:11 GMT -5
It's 5 pages worth of my animals, not just 1 animal Hans. Quit trying to make light of this situation Hans it is happening to many breeders.
Sheri to be a little more precise. I do not test or use Legacy for anything, I test with UCD directly....my animals are registered with the ADCA ONLY. Yet there are 5 pages worth of animals that I bred, owned or currently owned that are now listed on the Legacy registry website. One is even showing up as being genotyped yet she has never left my property and is now deceased. One has to wonder how this happens.
Judy is growing the Legacys datebase off of the ADCA's back, All the while badmouthing them. Again Legacy is a one man band and can do whatever it wants to do without any membership. stooping this low.
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