New to forum and cattle

[seanandkatie]

Hey all my name is Sean, my wife (Katie) and our boys have been researching and in the beginning stages of planning for starting our farm. We We have recently (3yrs) moved from the city to a more rural part of Michigan. We are now on 5acres, with around 3 acres that we want to use for our pasture. 2 of these acres have quiet a bit of overgrowth and brush. We are prepping the land over the next 2 yrs, and I have a few(a lot) of questions. My first question is, do we have a big enough area for 2 or 3 dexters? Or do I need to clear more of the overgrowth? Also we still need to fence in the area, and Im wondering how I should set it up? should I split it into 2 areas so that I can rotate where we let them into? Thanks in advance, we are very excited to get plans moving forward.

[zephyrhillsusan]

Hi, seanandkatie, welcome to the forum! You're really wise to ask the questions before you get the cattle! I'm not familiar with the climate in your part of the country (being from NW GA), but my guess is that you're going to have to supplement with hay most of the year, even with rotating two pastures. Hopefully someone who knows the area better will have some advice for you, like Pinevalleydexters.

As far as the fencing, I recommend having a perimeter fence out of posts and woven field wire or cattle panels--something other than electric.  You could subdivide inside that area with electric.  However, it's really handy if you have two actual pastures you can separate animals into--think weaning, separating a bull calf from a heifer calf you don't want bred, etc.

Hopefully you have AI available for breeding your cow back.  You could get a steer as a companion for your bred cow, then eat your steer after she calves so she has the calf for a companion.  Or if someone near you sells steers, you could just always have one coming along.

Have you thought of an area for working them?  Immunizations, securing one for any necessary vet care, keeping a sick animal confined, etc.

Here's a blog post I did that covers a few things to think about before you get a cow.  (It says "milk cow," but most of this is relevant even if you don't plan to milk.)  You're way ahead of the game by asking these questions before you get your cow!  Good luck! 

[seanandkatie]

Thanks for the info, we are trying to read as much as we can. Why do you say something other then electric? and what is AI? I am in the process of building a barn for separation and working needs. We are in southern Michigan, and the breeders that I've spoken with, say they supplement in the winter.

We were thinking of getting 2 heifer calfs, 1 already with calf. This was a suggestion from a local breeder, what are your thoughts? We are hoping to have 1 for milking, and the calf to raise for slaughter.

In an average summer, how much pasture does 2 heifers, 1 calf, and 1 steer go through in a given month?

What amount of time, morning and night, does it take to keep up on chores?

What things are needed to be done daily to keep healthy cattle?

[kozzy]

You will need to supplement the pasture grass at some point in the summer months. Everybody's land is different but for 2 and a calf in a middlin climate, 1 acre would be eaten down in about 6 weeks to the point where you are stressing the pasture. It'd take at least another 6 weeks of well irrigated and well fertilized time to get it back to a reasonable level....probably a bit longer. Pies starts building up to a pretty heavy level by that time also so needs to be dragged and broken. Obviously there are a ton of factors that affect such things so those numbers are just water-cooler talk and yours might vary wildly.

Nothing wrong with supplementing with hay---you'll be doing it most of the winter anyway. It just costs time and money to make it happen.

As to the fence thing: Cows love to use fence as a long scratching wall. They are GREAT at choosing the weakest part of your fence to do this. Imagine what happens when an 800 lb bulldozer decides it wants to push against whatever fence you put in because it'll happen. NEVER underestimate the resolve of a beefie who decides to muck with your fences and gates. I put in a darned strong fence and good gates....and I'm installing electric now because it still isn't good enough if the bull gets it in his head that he wants to shove against it. I've got a 12 foot mid-heavy pipe gate right now that has a 16" bow in the middle from being shoved. It'd be folded were it not for an over-the top design of the end post sections.

Oh...and welcome :-)

[zephyrhillsusan]

seanandkatie, I'll *try* to answer your questions. I suggested something other than electric for your exterior fence because electric is not reliable enough for an exterior fence. Electric (solar, battery or grid) will eventually go down at some time or another--and then there's nothing to hold your cattle in. Also, calves' thick hair tends to make them impervious to the shock, and they get under. Even if your electric fence is working right, if something scares your cattle, they can go right through it.

AI is Artificial Insemination. You need to find out if you have an AI tech available who will AI using Dexter semen and who has a storage tank to receive it when it's shipped. It's getting harder and harder to find people who will lease bulls, much less let their bull breed someone else's cows, so I wouldn't count on that.

I'm a bit confused about the animals you're planning to get. A "heifer" is a young female bovine that hasn't had a calf yet, or one that has just had her first calf. So, to be sure I understand what the breeder recommended to you, do you plan to get a cow with a calf at her side and a young heifer? Or do you plan to get a bred heifer and an unbred heifer?

Personally, and this is just me, if you've never had cattle before, I would highly recommend that you start with a mature cow, either bred or with a calf at her side. That way you have an experienced mama who is more likely to calve without problems, and it will make your learning curve much easier. A mature cow doesn't need lessons in how to let her calf nurse, how not to step on it, how to lick it dry, and so many other things that not all first-calf heifers manage with ease. Our first cow even weaned her calf for us! There are plenty of other things for you to be learning, it's nice if you can let the cow handle some of it.

Sorry, I can't say how much pasture they go through in a month, and it will change all the time, depending on rainfall, pasture improvements, etc.

Again, the time for daily chores varies widely. Some farmers around here throw their herd out in a big pasture and pretty much ignore them. If you feed, that adds time. Part of it will depend on how you feed hay--square bales versus round bales, in a trough or manger or hay net versus putting a round bale in a feeding ring. It will also depend on your water situation--will you have a frost-free hydrant that pours directly into every tank, or will you have to run hose in the summer and haul buckets in the winter? I would probably count on an hour twice a day with some half days thrown in on a weekly basis for manure removal, clipping pastures, cleaning water tanks, mending fences, etc.

What do cattle need every day? Something to eat and drink, so with small acreage that will mean putting free choice hay out (meaning enough so they don't run out), possibly putting grain out, and filling water tanks. We do all of that twice a day. They also need loose minerals, so you need to check those regularly. In a small area, you'll need to work on manure removal regularly. Those are just the basic chores to count on, and that could change if you have a cow that produces too much milk for her young calf and needs to be milked, young'uns that need to be gentled, a sick one or injured one that needs care, etc.

My best suggestion for the answers to these questions is to try to visit some farms in your area and shadow them to learn about how they do things. You'll probably see lots of things you never even thought of to ask. It's a great learning experience and a great way to make contacts with people you can go to for advice later on. Bring them some fresh tomatoes or homemade jelly, something they probably don't have time to do if they're busy with cattle, and they'll probably be thrilled to answer all your questions.

[cathylee]

Hi seanandkatie, I'm embarrassed to say welcome because I am so new on this forum.

To your specific question about splitting the pasture space. I would say absolutely, yes. Your grass will grow better and last longer if it gets a rest. Carrying capacity for the amount of land varies tremendously. Maybe your neighbors have an opinion.

Have you figured out how much hay will cost? I assume your grass growing season is relatively short as is our. Not sure what a Dexter cow eats as I have mostly larger cows but I would think 35 lbs a day would be a safe bet and provide extra for penned calves pasture rest etc. I think my friend gets by on 3 tons for each of her Dexters in the winter. Someone on the board can probably give you a better number. I usually figure that as a "homesteader" I am happy if I get meat value or calf sales that match my hay and vet bills. Of course there are lots of other expenses.

I have brought in a two different bulls in three years and took my cows to be bred once. So I do think that immunizations are important. There are threads that discuss immunizations on this board. In the future I believe I will have the infrastructure to have AI done on my property so maybe less important. But there are still a lot of environmental infectious hazards such as pink eye that immunizations may prevent or reduce the severity of infection.

I like cattle panels for their flexibility in setting up pens keeping the cows from the hay storage etc. But even with that I find two fences much better than one when there is a need to separate i.e., barn stall and barn yard fencing between the herd and the separated cow/calves. Used panels are often available and that is how I bought mine (except for the panel with a gate which was pricey). In general I think I will be building more infrastructure but having a set up of panels helps me know how I want to build in more permanent pens/alleys, covered stalls. Panels can be difficult on land that isn't level. And almost none of our land is level. So I have to use quite a bit of reinforcement and strategic placement to avoid an excitable heifer lifting the downhill side to get out. So panels aren't perfect by any means. Generally when you bring in a couple new cows or calves you want to contain them more securely for a few days. They need to settle down after the trailer ride and leaving their herd to come to a new strange place. Any of my cows could go over my fences if they wanted to.

I have a neighbor that is a very sought after agronomist and his father has a large Angus herd. He does the AI for his Dad. And his wife has a large Islandic sheep herd that he helps with and does AI for. So I just ask him about what fertilizers/minerals the soil needs, how much hay, etc.

We buy hay from two providers. I like to be able to see the growing hayfields so I have a better idea about the quality. I have bought single large bales from a man that ships in hay and has (pricey) hay all year every year. My cows did not want to eat it. I felt like I really didn't know what I was buying and he was not helpful when I told him about it.

Do you know your weeds? We have several toxic concerns. Houndstongue, Yarrow, Ponderosa pine... I sold a cow and her heifer and steer a couple of years ago. They have since then had two episodes of late abortions from pine. The first was the heifer. They kept her penned in a more restricted area this year and she delivered a nice heifer calf. They left the cow with another steer grazing and browsing the pasture they both had been on the year before. So this year the cow had an early abortion. I guessed they proved they have a problem that they will have to be address. Their previous experience had been with steers. So I think they were over confident about how easy cows would be.

Did you have to clean up a bit of old junk off the property when you moved in? If so you might want to consider going over the property carefully for wire or nails. Consider a magnet bolus as well. I was once in terror that a steer had hardware disease. My vet said it was copper deficiency and worms. He was probably right as the steer got better. I love our mobile vet!

I certainly agree that going with a recently weaned steer and heifer is a good way to go. If you get a nice heifer from a bull you chose you can keep her. And you will have meat sooner if you get a steer now. You will know how many cows you can pasture after a couple of years.

[zephyrhillsusan]

You may be new, cathylee, but that was a great, thorough answer!

[cddexter]

You might want to visit John Potter in Galen, MI. John has been a Dexter breader since Noah got off the boat, he has a masters degree in science, and does a lot of work with genetics, especially color. John breeds for high quality animals, they are DNA tested for just about everything, and he does not support the keeping or breeding of genetic defects (no matter how cute or in demand). He was extremely ill a while back, but while he hasn't bounced back completely, he's at least functioning these days. He loves to chat Dexters and would welcome a visit. We don't give direct access to others here for 'hacking' reasons, but if you check out the American Dexter Cattle Association webpage, Online Pedigrees (second line, left side) and put his last name in the 'breeder' search field, he will come up. Just click on any of his animals (left column) and he will show as breeder and you can get his info there. He would also be a good source for you when you are ready to go ahead, you'd be getting animals with guarantees and his prices are reasonable.

Good luck with your project. Carol Davidson.

PS. should add that the feed requirements for Dexters is pretty much 1/2 of what a 'real' breed, like Angus or Hereford would eat in your area. This should allow you to figure out what and how much to buy, and what your costs will be. I'm in the Pacific Northwest, and can get away with 10 lbs of top quality second cut hay/day/each, or 10 lbs of adequate hay plus maybe 2 lbs dairy mix. If the weather really turns foul I up the dairy mix or throw in a little corn at night for extra heat.

PPS; What's the matter with me, Michigan? You should also definitely contact Pat Mitchell, in Dexter terms, older than dirt (not you, Pat, just your experience level Pat has some truely lovely animals, and his family would welcome you, for sure. Again, like John, someone who puts quality first.

[emsshamrock]

Welcome to Dexters! They are a wonderful breed that I have had the pleasure of being around my entire life.
We are in western Michigan and our grass does tend to run out in the summer months, especially when we have a dry summer like we've had so far. We do supplement in the summer months if we have to and we definitely do in the winter. Our pasture is split into chunks with electric fencing. Our perimeter fencing is 5(or 6 I can't remember for sure) hi-tensile fencing. The cattle do not even try and test it. I would not recommend using cattle panels for reasons that have already been mentioned and they can be quite expensive.
The Dexters are great at clearing brushy areas and weeds. Watch your weeds, we don't have an over abundance of toxic plants but it's good to be careful. Cows won't tend to eat them unless they have nothing left to eat.
You are welcome anytime to come and check out our herd and set up. I'm Pat Mitchell's daughter btw.

[zephyrhillsusan]

emsshamrock, I can't find a reference here to the problems with cattle panels. Do you mind clarifying? Thanks!

[emsshamrock]

Aug 30, 2015 13:00:54 GMT -5 zephyrhillsusan said:

emsshamrock, I can't find a reference here to the problems with cattle panels. Do you mind clarifying? Thanks!

I would say that the uneven ground is definitely a turn off, would need lots of reinforcing. Also, cows love to rub on things and if you are using cattle panels as a perimeter, they will take advantage of the opportunity and can trash the fencing. They aren't going to rub on electric. Not to mention that electric is probably cheaper. We haven't ever had a problem with our hi-tensile. Even with the vast number of white tailed deer around, they don't want to come in and the cows don't want to get out. We have many trashed panels around here tough :/

[cathylee]

I didn't intend to suggest that panels were a substitute for fencing and certainly not perimeter fencing but there are times you need to separate or pen them in a smaller space and panels can create pens, alleys, etc. I don't know anyone with cows around here who doesn't utilize them at one time or another. I'm setting up a Bud Box and alley with panels right now to lead to my new (old) chute. I always use panels when loading my larger cows onto a trailer. I'd like to see the day that I could load cows with just a lead. But even then when I have the mobile vet come I want the animal/s penned in a small space so I know we will be ready to get the job done. I have a space with fence posts placed to support panels when I want to use them.

I certainly don't mean to imply that panels are a necessity but the discussion of their function at least illustrates some problems that come up that require a solution of one kind or another. And panels are a flexible way to address some problems.

[zephyrhillsusan]

We use both corral panels (tube) and cattle panels (welded wire); at least that's how people in this area distinguish them. We use corral panels for temporary pens and a round pen between the barnyard and the sacrifice pasture that can be opened to either one or used as a passage.  We also chain them to the support posts in the barn and use them to separate it into pens and working areas.  

We have several perimeter fences made of cattle panels on T-posts. We put a T-post in the middle, so there's an 8-foot span between T-posts. We learned that trick from Gene Logsden's book All Flesh is Grass, where he recommends using it in hilly, wooded areas.  It's been a lifesaver to us there, saving lots of time and money and labor--not having to clear a strip wide enough to get a tractor in to use the post-hole digger.  Maybe it's because there are woods on the other side, but we haven't had any trouble with our animals challenging those fences.  I much prefer them over barbed wire, which we still have a lot of and (honestly) will probably never get rid of.  I never worry about calves getting under or through them.  

[midhilldexters]

My experience with cattle panels is the same as Emily's. If I ever used them as fence I would need electric on them. Anything that is not electric, corral panels, cattle panels, field fence etc., if I have it as fence it would have electric across it to keep theme off. Even my tube gates have one polywire with a handle on the end (hooked to the high tensile) between two step in posts. It stops rubbing and if anyone is in heat the bull doesn't decide to fold the gate up and walk through. All internal gates are electric polywire.

Carol K

[cathylee]

All our perimeter fencing and paddock divisions are electric. We don't electrify our gates.