Honeycreek Dexters
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All Natural Drug Free Grass Fed Beef, From Our Herd Sire Phoenix
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Post by Honeycreek Dexters on Feb 10, 2010 14:02:24 GMT -5
About 10 days ago we brought to our farm some new animals, some bred and some heifers. When starting the paper work we noticed that some of the heifers were close in age to our heifers and we took note of the marked size difference. We have given this much thought. Our animals are 25 to 35 % larger than animals of a like age. So of course we are curious about the reasons for the difference. We at first thought the reason was of course feed type and quality and quantity. But on further thought I came to the conclusion this was probably not the case. I saw the farm and the owner and the feed type and style of feed operation. And if visual clues are an indicator I don't believe feeding was the reason. So what other reason could it be. Well while asking about the breeding habits of this particular breeder I found out they keep the bulls in with the cows and steers and heifers all year long. This leads me to believe the heifers are being bread as soon as they start to cycle. And this in my opinion is the reason for the size difference. If the heifer is bread before she is developed then she must contend with her own growth at the same time she is developing a calf and this takes away vital nourishment from her as well as ensuring an undersized calf. I know this is a concern of some breeders but I would like to hear any other thoughts on the specifics of why do you think the size difference exist. I am looking for any and all causes. Anybody care to comment? Thanks Jim HCD
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Post by copperhead on Feb 10, 2010 14:58:36 GMT -5
They could just be a smaller line of Dexters. I have some that are long legged, and some medium and there is a marked difference in the size. JMO. P.J.
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Post by Clive on Feb 10, 2010 17:53:08 GMT -5
I've been told that putting heifers in calf early holds back their growth, same with sheep, it makes sense but never done it myself. Having said that I now accidentally have a 13 months old heifer that is 6+ months in calf. So she will calves age 16 months. She is a little bit smaller than I would expect from her family line, maybe 15-20% at the moment. Calf size can be a separate issue because they can be born small because of a shorter gestation period, and then go on to grow quickly or slowly. That is all genetic. My Angus bull would throw relatively small calves that grow extremely quickly. At 6 weeks the AA-Dexter composites are not that much smaller than most dexters at say 5-6 months. But at birth they were say 15-20% bigger. At 10 months they will be as big as mom.
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Honeycreek Dexters
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All Natural Drug Free Grass Fed Beef, From Our Herd Sire Phoenix
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Post by Honeycreek Dexters on Feb 10, 2010 19:02:56 GMT -5
Thanks Clive lot of information packed in your post.
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Post by legendrockranch on Feb 10, 2010 19:33:25 GMT -5
I've been told that putting heifers in calf early holds back their growth I agree with Clives quote above, although of course genetics plays a major role as well. Barb
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Honeycreek Dexters
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All Natural Drug Free Grass Fed Beef, From Our Herd Sire Phoenix
Posts: 362
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Post by Honeycreek Dexters on Feb 12, 2010 13:52:53 GMT -5
Just a quick note on undersized heifers.Cattlemen for years have noted that first calf heifers tend to have lower pregnancy rates and breed back later in the breeding season following their first calf. Much of this problem (not all) can be tied to those heifers that were younger and smaller or thinner in body condition going into their first breeding season. Heifers that were small at the start of the breeding season often are found to be open or non-pregnant upon palpation after the breeding season is over. However, some of the small, light, poorly developed heifers still get bred. At first this may seem to be a blessing, but research data indicates that their potential for problems are not over. Heifers that were bred when weighing only about 50% of their mature weight (instead of the target of 65% of mature weight) will be poor gambles to stay in the herd in years to come. Data from a number of years of ago with Hereford heifers illustrates this point. Just a few points on reasons to seperate open cattle from bulls. HCD
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Post by Olga on Feb 12, 2010 14:21:48 GMT -5
A local farmer once told me what he does if one of his heifers gets bred to early. The fetus doesn't take away much in the way of nutrients from the mother in the first 2 trimesters, just the 3rd. And then lactation is really hard on a young cow. So he lets the young heifer have her calf, but separates it and raises it on his jersey nurse cow. The heifer has a chance to quickly recover from pregnancy and her growth isn't stifled. That's just one way to do it, I guess, I haven't tried it. But I am against breeding too early. I keep our bulls with the cows until they calve, then I separate for 60 days. Then I put the bull back in for about 3 months, then separate again until the heifer calves are either sold or can be moved to a weaning pasture.
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Post by lrininger on Feb 12, 2010 19:13:27 GMT -5
I kept a heifer open till she was a little taller, because she had always been petite, well, she was over 2 1/2 before she calved, had a bouncing 40 some pound boy & she still is as wide as she is tall. But the calf looks to be normal. I don't think Mom will ever grow as tall as the other girls. Just a smaller body frame & everything, been fed the same as the other girls. Same bull, dam was as big as the other girls, but this little red one, was always petite. Will be interesting on how tall this bull calf gets. He already is a pistol at only 3 days old.
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Post by kansasdexters on Feb 12, 2010 22:47:05 GMT -5
If you're wondering about calf size variation, you may also be interested in Dexter cow size variation -- even way back when the original importations of Dexters were first made into the United States from Ireland and England. Here are some historical photo examples - Howard Gould's (Castlegould Herd) prize winning Dexter cow, Kingswood Country Girl, ADCA No. 7: James J. Hill's (North Oaks Herd) Dexter cow in an early 1900's photo: Elmendorf Farm (Elmendorf Herd) in Lexington, Kentucky - Dexter cow with "notch ears"- Gort Sunbeam 5th, ADCA No. 114: Charles S. Plumb, a professor of animal husbandry at Ohio State University, and the first registrar for the American Kerry and Dexter Cattle Club (the forerunner of the ADCA) made the following observation in his book "Types and Breeds of Farm Animals", published in 1906: "The Dexter-Kerry breed belongs to the dual-purpose type, and is one of the smallest breeds known. One Dexter-Kerry cow photographed by the writer probably did not stand much over forty-four inches high. She was smooth all over, distinctly beefy, with a very large udder." Even in 1906, many people still referred to the Dexter, as a "Dexter-Kerry". Dr. Plumb states in his book that the "Dexter-Kerry" is of unknown cross. This type is more blocky, shorter-legged, heavier of head and neck, and more beefy in type than the true Kerry, and as seen by the author, much smaller. The color also is variable, being black, red, or roan. There are wider variations among the Dexter-Kerry branch than in the true Kerry. In each case the udder is unusually well developed, showing large capacity in proportion to size of body." Through the decades, Dexter breeders in the United States have used various selection criteria and they have followed their own individual preferences, and some haven't really selected for anything special at all -- they've just bred for calves. Is it any wonder that we still see significant variation in size, shape, and form? Patti
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Post by legendrockranch on Feb 12, 2010 23:24:17 GMT -5
Charles S. Plumb, a professor of animal husbandry at Ohio State University, and the first registrar for the American Kerry and Dexter Cattle Club (the forerunner of the ADCA) made the following observation in his book "Types and Breeds of Farm Animals", published in 1906: "The Dexter-Kerry breed belongs to the dual-purpose type, and is one of the smallest breeds known. One Dexter-Kerry cow photographed by the writer probably did not stand much over forty-four inches high. She was smooth all over, distinctly beefy, with a very large udder." Thanks for the info. I find it interesting that at that time a Dexter/Kerry cow was stated as "did not stand much over 44 inches high". I remind you this is from a published book dated 1906. That just goes to show us how off our breed standards are suggesting the guidelines at 42 inches for a cow. I do realize we have no idea where they measured her from. But still... Barb
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Post by copperhead on Feb 13, 2010 10:23:47 GMT -5
I noticed that too, Barb. Now thats about the standard for a bull, not a cow. I think our standards now are 38 to 42 for a cow, we really have breed them down, and now some are trying to breed them back up. Different strokes for different folks !!!! P.J.
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Post by legendrockranch on Feb 13, 2010 11:47:19 GMT -5
PJ, I don't necessarily think that we've bred them down, I believe this is probably a case of measurements between carriers of chondro and non-carriers. Meaning that a 44 inch cow should not be looked at size wise as taller than the suggested guidelines.
Barb
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Post by cddexter on Feb 13, 2010 12:08:18 GMT -5
patti, is that a notch ear or just shadow(it does match the highlights). wouldn't the ear be awfully big and out of proportion if the whole thing was her ear, either filled in or shoved together? You probably have a much better quality pic so can tell, but from this pic, I'm not so sure.
I have personal knowledge of 45 inch dwarfs, and 39 inch nons, so it's no surprise to me we have size variation. patti is right about selection. c.
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Post by cjsfarm on Feb 13, 2010 12:13:48 GMT -5
I agree with Genbo in that size is more a genetic trait than the way the heifer is raised. We have for the past 5 years culled our tallest herd cows every year and kept the smaller ones. We have introduced bulls to the herd that show the most hind quarter developement in their calves. It is starting to show that our dexters (non-carrier) can produce smaller and smaller calves while not making them "dainty or femine" in stature.
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Honeycreek Dexters
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All Natural Drug Free Grass Fed Beef, From Our Herd Sire Phoenix
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Post by Honeycreek Dexters on Feb 13, 2010 13:50:17 GMT -5
Now as I understand it, within the Dexter community specifically the ADCA. There is a breed standard. And that is what it is; a standard. And if an individual wants to produce animals that fall within said standard their animals are accepted by the ADCA as standard of the breed. Now if same individuals want the animals to be within those guidelines and just breeds for the purpose of saying the animals are Dexters with no thought to the resulting off spring. (Maybe) everything is fine. But what is the thought when same breeder wants the resulting animal to be within the guideline but achieve the top most level of weight and growth, again while staying within the guide line? It seems to me that only breeding for the smallest and continually smaller off spring is going outside the guidelines to the other direction and it also seems to me this is not looked upon as being as detrimental to the breed as going to the larger end of the spectrum. PJ made a statement that some folks are trying to breed them back up, I would ask for specifics. Who for instance? And please define "breed them back up" And do you see this as a detriment to the breed as a whole? Is there something wrong with having Dexters that consistently have good flesh and moderate size? As opposed to tiny little pet cows that the only value they have is the pet like quality's? And there is nothing wrong with that if that is what you want, but at the same time should not we realize there are folks that have the same commitment to there livestock that have a different point of view, and their thinking may not be the same as some other individual. Lest we all become sheeple. Now as I have said to some (on this board) in confidence my intent in starting this thread was actually as a learning thread for new Dexter owners. Not as a way to start an argument. And I also said if was straight forward about my intent I would be castigated for my statements. So to be perfectly clear I do not advocate breeding Dexters outside of the current ADCA breed standards, but I do believe there can be a commercial group of Dexter cattle that serve both functions in this day and age. After all have we not been saying for a long time these animals are multipurpose, I think it is time we stood by that statement. These are extremely versatile animals it is time we let them "be all they can be" to grab a line from a current TV promotion. Rather than let them languish in obscurity in someones back yard and serve only as an interesting conversation piece. And be looked upon as an oddity rather than the "classic family all purpose cow" that they truly are. This is of course my opinion and others are free to have there own, even if it is different than mine.
edited to correct spelling only
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