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Post by kansasdexters on Feb 18, 2010 10:19:29 GMT -5
Hi Gary,
Several people on this Proboard have strong opinions, they express their feelings in their postings, get it off their chest (makes them feel better); but it's really a "take it or leave it" kind of deal for anyone else that chooses to read it.
I think that it helps when people develop an understanding of the history of the Dexter breed, what breed-type characteristics are associated with the breed, and how genetics and breeding choices work together to produce a desirable result. What concerns me sometimes are the exaggerated statements made in ignorance of the facts. Ignorance seems to fan the flames of fear and anger, especially among those with little experience and much self-doubt. Their first reaction is one of negativity towards our breed and its owner/breeders. That's a real shame, because our breed of cattle truly is a wonderful, adaptable, small breed; and most of Dexter owner/breeders truly are wonderful, caring, people.
These discussions keep coming up over and over again mainly because we have a constant flux of new owner/breeders just starting their herds or just starting their research on the Dexter breed. I've been a Dexter breeder for nearly six years now, and I've seen the same questions, accusations, criticisms, and deliberations come up for public discussion repeatedly through the years. This may be annoying to some; but to me, it represents a vibrant pulse, an indicator that our unique cattle breed is viable and that it continually attracts renewed attention from future owner/breeders. I think that it pays to listen to what they are saying, to what questions they have, and to identify what their needs and desires are.
What is distilled from all these opinions, emotional appeals, criticisms, and discussions, are actions taken by real people to make new friends, travel to new places, challenge themselves physically and mentally with livestock ownership, develop new interests and ultimately enrich their lives and the lives of others. No need for apologies -- what you say is not offensive, it is from the heart and mind of someone that cares about something other than just himself.
Bravo!
Patti
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Post by Olga on Feb 18, 2010 12:19:33 GMT -5
Gene, I'm a bit confused. You addressed your post to Patti. Is there a missing post you're responding to, or did you mean to reply to Barb but wrote to Patti instead? Thank you.
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Post by marion on Feb 18, 2010 12:47:27 GMT -5
History of one cow family: My first cow was a big old girl 45-46 inches. Woodmagic sire, Klein dwarf dam. She got her excessive size as a long-leg offspring of her (big) chondro carrier dam. Cow bred to Cluny (42 inch bull), her daughter was also 46 inches. Tremendous milk in those two cows, and the old girl threw large calves (lots of beef). Her 46 inch daughter bred to Galaxy (He was 43 or 44"), her bull calf was 49" at three yrs, and may have reached 50 inches. He threw much better udders than his dam and grand-dam, and good milk. Bred to a 41 inch non-chondro cow, produced a 45 inch cow, nice deep cow, milky, good udder. The 45" cow was then bred to a 43 inch bull (his dam 40" Cluny daughter, his sire Dunston who I think ended around 44"). The resulting heifer is a lovely solid girl who will mature 42 maybe 43 inches. Her teat spacing is very nice and I have a feeling she is going to milk. Bred to one of my AI bulls, or my live bull, I would anticipate a heifer from her would be 41-42 inches. So, there is a place for breeding stock that maybe over the breed standard. I'm glad to have a heifer from the line of my first large milky old cow. Remember, that large size came from her DWARF background. We know of some other animals that were grand daughters/sons of those dwarf cows brought in by Doris Crowe to mate with her Woodmagic animals. They were huge. We laughingly refer to them as Dexter giants!! ..marion
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Post by kansasdexters on Feb 18, 2010 13:05:16 GMT -5
Olga,
Gene is dazed and confused. I didn't write anything to him about A2 testing, Barb did. I'm not mad at anyone concerning the testing of Kerry cattle for A2 -- all of my Kerries have been tested for the A2 Beta Casein allele, and they are all homozygous for it.
The issue that the ADCA had with the New Zealand-based A2 Milk company, had to do with calling the test for A2 Beta Casein a test for "A2 Milk". "A2 Milk" is a copyrighted term and the ADCA didn't have permission to use it, so it had to be removed from the ADCA web site.
Dr. Cothran's lab has been asked several times to resume testing for A2 Beta Casein. Whether or not his lab offers the test is completely up to him. The patent that is held by the A2 Milk Corporation has to do with the production of A2 milk and the testing of animals to determine their genetics in relationship to the A2 Beta Casein allele to know if they are suitable for the production of A2 Milk.
Dexter cattle have not been utilized in commercial dairy operations in the United States for the production of A2 milk. The testing for the A2 Beta Casein allele can be done without any special license from the A2 Milk Corporation, as long as the testing is not being done to determine if the animal can be used for the production of A2 milk. I know this sounds confusing, but we can test animals for the A2 Beta Casein allele to determine if they are similar to historic old breeds that are known to be homozygous for A2 Beta Casein -- that doesn't violate the A2 Milk Corporation's patent rights. It's not the A2 Beta Casein test procedure that is patented and requires licensing, it's the use of the test to determine suitability for A2 milk production that is patented and requires licensing.
The Devon cattle breeders get around this by saying their cattle that test homozygous for the A2 Beta casein allele, do not carry the A1 Beta casein allele, therefore they are "A1-free" and they produce "A1-free milk". Since "A1-free", is not a copyrighted term -- there is no violation of the A2 Milk Corporation's patent or copyright.
Patti
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Post by legendrockranch on Feb 18, 2010 15:36:20 GMT -5
You're not being forthright and complete in your version of A2 testing. Remember, one of the first cows I "pulled strings" to have tested were some of yours. Don't imply that I was being selfish. The number of tests I could get were extremely limited. Well, I don't know who he was talking about, he has never tested any of my animals, through me. Barb
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Post by cddexter on Feb 19, 2010 10:12:34 GMT -5
Gene, if I might make a suggestion.....
I don't know you well enough to guess if it's just an accident or deliberate, but honestly, using terms like A1 defective mutation and how the assn is weak and useless by not policing guidelines (well the ones you think are important) are bound to generate knee jerk reactions. If that's what you want, then by all means continue, we'll just figure it out. If it's not, then, please think twice next time. I don't know which came first, or if A1/2 developed differently in different parts of the world, and heights will always be a problem if we continue to use a 'guideline' that was originally developed to reflect dwarf heights (because most of the nons were either dumped or killed--and not all that long ago, either). As a personal favor, would you back off a bit on your constant harping. thanks, c.
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Honeycreek Dexters
member
All Natural Drug Free Grass Fed Beef, From Our Herd Sire Phoenix
Posts: 362
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Post by Honeycreek Dexters on Feb 19, 2010 11:29:43 GMT -5
I know I said I was out of this discussion, but I feel as I started it I can and want to jump back in. My original post was concerning calf size at a young age, I don't know how or why the talk turned into an argument or disagreement over mature animal size and or why some things are wrong for the breed and some are correct for the breed. I do know I asked about who was breeding up but I already knew the answer, I just wanted factual information from the person that made the statement not from the person that answered. I appreciate all answers and have the utmost respect for any and all breeders, but on the same hand if someone makes a statement of fact then by golly back up your statement with a citation, not just a general "well its this way or that way" with no facts to back up the statement. I have already shown in other threads where statements that are made based on emotion and warm fuzzy feelings and not facts are just incorrect. So as Joe Friday says, just the facts Ma'am.
I don't know how the testing of A,B,C or D milk got into this discourse or udders or feet or bloodlines or any of that. And nowhere did I ever say a word about breeding outside of the Standard or Guidelines ( a word I used many times in my original post). I will say one more time my concern is for the Dexter calf to be born with the additional weight already present so I don't have to play catch up on the way to finished weight. What ever that may be.
I do believe that many here just want to argue about their own concerns but I do wish you would do it in your own thread so my name isn't attached to it. I get into enough arguments without anyones help.
And as always this is only my opinion, others are welcome to their own. And again thanks to all that furthered and informed all about the original question of calf size. HCD
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Post by marion on Feb 19, 2010 11:57:46 GMT -5
Hi Jim, When you bought those heifers that were smaller than yours, were the adult breeding animals at that farm the same mature size as yours? If they were, perhaps they were just of a 'slower to mature' breeding. I think the goal of beef breeders, is to have a calf of a certain size, not too small but small enough to be 'easy birthing', with the genetics for a steady rate of gain once on the ground. I have had calves from 30 lbs (heifer from a 40 inch second calver) all the way to around 70 lbs (heifer from the 45-46 inch, older cow) And, as you would expect, a very milky dam grows a really good calf..marion
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Honeycreek Dexters
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All Natural Drug Free Grass Fed Beef, From Our Herd Sire Phoenix
Posts: 362
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Post by Honeycreek Dexters on Feb 19, 2010 15:45:47 GMT -5
I gave this some thought before I first posted and my thinking at the time was there was nothing remarkable about the cows, I believe I would have noticed the size difference at the time of sale. And I didn't take note of it (calf size) until we were doing the paper work that is when we noticed the age and compared the new animals to our existing calves. And that is one of the reasons for my post.
I must tell you we have not weighed a new born calfs yet mostly because we want it to bond with the cow but as the brood cows become more experienced we will start to weigh them at a couple hours old. We will likely do it this spring with the third and forth calf cows, maybe not the first and second calf animals. I think I will wait and see what nature looks like on the first calf heifers, I don't want to spook them right out of the box.
After reading I am thinking there two possibilities,the first maybe it is a genetic trait, or it could be growth rate of different lines. Most of our cows give us calves that look almost identical in size when born within a few weeks of each other and they remain the same size to sale or slaughter. We have only had one that is what we thought small for the birth and that is from a heifer that was bread 3 months to soon. I think she calved at 21 months. And that animal was born in the snow at minus 0 degree F and is the most active calf you have ever seen. He was up and running at 8 or 10 hours old, and seemed to thrive in the cold weather.
We will keep up our search for the best Dexter for our operation and make a concerted effort to collect better data on the animals physiology. I think about 10 years will do it. And by then it can be someone else's worry. HCD
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