Get 'er Dun

[danbntx]

I've been pouring over the the color genetics for the last few days and I think I have this figured out now. As I'm still a good year away from purchasing my first Dexters, it should give me enough time to get this right and find the correct starters. Basically, my goal is to buy a bull and 2 heifers/cows that give me the best chance of producing primarily Dun colored calves.

So if I've read the references correctly, I'd be looking for both a bull and cows/heifers that are (Ed/Ed-b/b) which should also mean they themselves are both Dun colored, right?

Now here's the part where I still have a bit of uncertainty...I'm expecting there is still a chance I can get black calves. What I don't expect is any Red at all. Are these accurate assumptions?

[Olga]

If you want dun calves only, buy a dun bull who does not carry red and dun cows. This set up will give you 100% dun calves.

You cannot get black from two dun parents.
You can get red from two dun parents if they both carry red.

That's my understanding of it... Good luck!

[danbntx]

Thanks Olga, there are ADCA members in Whitesboro, Tx I'm hoping will have some when I'm ready, otherwise I hope some of the fine folks on this board will be able to fix me up.

[danbntx]

Thanks genebo, it probably sounds a bit weird to want to be that selective, but if I can, why not get what I want. I'm thinking I'll likely have to buy bull and females from 2 different breeders to avoid inbreeding. My next quest then would be to figure out how to recognize the best show traits I can afford...lots to learn.

Aug 17, 2011 21:28:44 GMT -5 @genebo said:

Sandusky,
Are you a member of PDCA?

Not yet, but it's on my to do list

Aug 17, 2011 21:28:44 GMT -5 @genebo said:

I wish every registry would show these markers in their on-line registries, don't you?

Sure would make my search easier, yes

[copperhead]

Sandusky, just to make Genes post clear, he ask if you are a member of the PDCA then mentioned writing to Chuck Daggett about the same issue. Chuck Daggatt is the head guy for the ADCA, most of us are members of the American Dexter Cattle Assoc., the PDCA has kind of crumbled, I don't really know why.

[danbntx]

Aug 18, 2011 21:06:56 GMT -5 copperhead said:

Sandusky, just to make Genes post clear, he ask if you are a member of the PDCA then mentioned writing to Chuck Daggett about the same issue. Chuck Daggatt is the head guy for the ADCA, most of us are members of the American Dexter Cattle Assoc., the PDCA has kind of crumbled, I don't really know why.

Thanks for the clarification copperhead, I was able to register on the PDCA site with no fees and no associated herd members. As I get closer to an actual focused search with intent to purchase, I'll sign up for membership on ADCA, hopefully they'll be more there to help refine my results by then.

[kansasdexters]

Genebo,

The ADCA Online Pedigree can be searched for color (red, black, or dun, and red/dun), it can also be searched for horned or polled, Parentage DNA status (Sire qualified, Dam qualified, Sire and Dam qualified, Genotype on file), PHA status, Chondro status, by state, by breeder, by owner, by registration number, and the ADCA Online Pedigree requires no "log in" to do this -- it is completely accessible public information if the test results have been reported to the ADCA.

Here is the link to the ADCA Online Pedigree Search Page: www.dextercattle.org/pedigreedb/index.html


Patti

[legendrockranch]

Thanks for the post Patti, I was just about to mention that also.

The pedigree search site for the ADCA is an absolutely wonderful tool. I haven't been to the P's site in quite some time so I can't speak to theirs.
There has even been a Angus forum that has used the ADCA pedigree search as an example of something they might want to consider.

Barb

[cddexter]

just so there's no confusion, patti's reference to red/dun is, I think, the reference to the old way of identifying not-black Dexters. You'd have to know the genetics of the ancestors to guess even close to right.

Up until about 1990, all not black Dexters were registered and identified as red. Then it turned out that 99% of them were actually dun. Oops. There was (and still is in some quarters) resistance to acknowledging this, plus a lot of people didn't seem to be able to see the difference. To put an end to the argument, and to fix the registry so animals were actually the color as registered, dna testing for color was required unless both parents were already proven.

They were also called 'red or dun', and sometimes red or dunn (must have been thinking of dunn and bradstreet ;D). c.

[marion]

Aug 18, 2011 22:26:34 GMT -5 danbntx said:

Aug 18, 2011 21:06:56 GMT -5 copperhead said:

Sandusky, just to make Genes post clear, he ask if you are a member of the PDCA then mentioned writing to Chuck Daggett about the same issue. Chuck Daggatt is the head guy for the ADCA, most of us are members of the American Dexter Cattle Assoc., the PDCA has kind of crumbled, I don't really know why.

Thanks for the clarification copperhead, I was able to register on the PDCA site with no fees and no associated herd members. As I get closer to an actual focused search with intent to purchase, I'll sign up for membership on ADCA, hopefully they'll be more there to help refine my results by then.

I have looked at the PDCA website, and I see that the home page has become a new page that is actually a BLOG. There is a sign-up feature, which makes it look as though people who have signed up for the BLOG page are members of the PDCA, when in fact they are not. Gene (as you have brought up the PDCA), could you tell us what has happened to the PDCA? Is it just that there has been no recent update of the online pedigree info, or have there really been no new registrations processed since September of last year?
Sandusky, Have fun finding your new dun herd foundation animals! ..marion

[marion]

Gene, I believe you have to pay to become a member of the PDCA in order to access the genetic information on tested and entered animals. Is it still possible for anyone to actually join the PDCA and not just the 'social network' BLOG page? I'm asking this because you appear to be comparing the ADCA with the PDCA, and think the PDCA has (had?) a lot to offer in the way of 'extras'.
But (see Olga's new thread), there is some question about whether the PDCA is a viable organization or registry. Could you, as a PDCA member who may still be able to access the members' area of that site (not just the social network BLOG), comment on this? ..marion

[danbntx]

From what I've read and seen, the Dun coloration of calves can come in various shades from blond to brown and everything in between.

Didn't I read somewhere that there is another gene in the mix that determines the actual shading? Theoretical situation, let's say I start with bull and cow (from different lineage themselves of course) that are both Ed/Ed b/b, let's also say they are both an identical "blond" shade of Dun. Will every calf from this pair be this same blond shade? Or since another shading gene is involved and the parents are from different lineage...I'll still get pure Dun classification of color, yet they still may be various shades depending on 1 or more shading gene influences. I know I'm getting into paralysis by analysis, but I'm cursed with thinking about these things until I can just get some hooves on the ground.

At the end of the day, when the time comes for me to start this herd, there will be more important factors than just color. Realistically unless I'm lucky enough to find breeders within a reasonable driving distance for my starters, I might have to compromise on my color goals. Disease free, temperament, beef and milk traits should will need the priority.

[legendrockranch]

I think the biggest problem you're going to run into is that not many people color test their animals.
I raise reds only, I don't color test but I do know some of my reds carry dun. On that note I test for everything else, PHA, Chondro, A2 and full parentage. It's just more money, more money especially when your doing the full spectrum DNA color test plus everything else.
I felt I had to draw the line somewhere, and color testing was it.

I understand what you are trying to do. My preference is dark red with black noses & black eyeliner but I gave up on trying for that simply because I'd be passing up some great animals.

On a side note I do know of someone who is breeding reds that carry dun, and duns that carry red. She is here in Texas and a member of this forum. Her breeding program is just getting started though.

Good luck in you search.

[cddexter]

sandusky, call John Potter.

I did the original work on color, identifying the wild gene (E+) as red in Dexters--the first cattle to be confirmed with the wild gene expressing as red (Limo's are black; Jerseys are taupe, and Holsteins are black with red forelocks and manes). The color geneticist wouldn't believe me that we had a recessive dun, and it wasn't until John Potter, in Michigan, with a masters degree in science, convinced the scientist (using his own animals: hair, pictures and pedigees) that she was willing to check into dun. She was working on brown in dogs, but 'everyone knew' brown didn't exist in cattle, but she tried our dna on her dog program and found Dexters do indeed carry brown. We are the only known breed to do so. It's not the usual dominant diluter' found in other breeds, which causes black to be murray grey color, and reds to be dun or silver (hetero or homo).

I've been told some shading has to do with testosterone, but I've also found dun fades in the sun: if you keep a dun inside during the day in the summer, it will be a lot darker than if it was roaming around outside in the sun.

John has done a ton of breeding with reds and duns and may be able to help you. Give him a call. He's a member of the ADCA. c.

[danbntx]

Great info, many thanks. I think I have enough information and resources now to carry on. At some point I'll have to compare notes with Mr. Potter as suggested. Sounds like if I go much deeper though I'll need a grant, a loan, a sponsor or win the lottery. I'll continue my amateur research as a hobbyist for now, but first things first, I just want some grass to grow at this point.