Post weaning conditioning period

[Cloverbell]

Silver Maple Dexters/Jeff Chambers wrote in another thread...

"I also would emphasize the very important extent that nutrition and in particular early nutrition has on the final type of the mature animal. We leave our calves on their mothers for at least six months - I think this has a huge impact on the development of the animal. Also once weaned, weaned calves should not be left to feed like a mature cow, a post weaning conditioning period is also important in development in my thinking."

Since I'm about to wean a group of calves at the end of this month, what would some suggestions be for post weaning conditioning be?

Linda/Cloverbell

[anthony]

This would all depend Clover.. Good quality, and I mean good quaity hay and the heifers should grow pretty darn good.. Think is that hay is expensive.. I would enver make my hiefes develop on what I feed my dry cows (Corn stover and protein last year) but I don't get to worried about giving them .5% bw of grain or anything like that.... The only time I worry about the calves is right at wraning.. Something highly digestable needs to be offered because a lot of times they aren't eating worth anything at weaning...

[otf]

Our calves are all familiar with some grain and hay, of course, before we wean them at 6 months or so, so the transition is more focused on their not having their mothers at hand. It's much easier to wean more than one at a time so they have company. And, as our vet says, save your BEST hay for your weanlings.

[otf]

Our calves are all familiar with some grain and hay, of course, before we wean them at 6 months or so, so the transition is more focused on their not having their mothers at hand. It's much easier to wean more than one at a time so they have company. And, as our vet says, save your BEST hay for your weanlings.

[anthony]

When we had fewer calves we used to put a previous year or previous season in with the weanlings to act as a mentor.. It really helps. Still do it to this day with the Angus herd.. Doesn't teach them to not beller but sure seems to get them going on new feeds faster.

[Cloverbell]

That is a great idea about putting in a "babysitter". I notice the 2 yearling heifers are so interested in the calves and that would be easy to do.

Does the post weaning conditioning mean putting them on grain? I gave my 2006 calves a mixture of oats/molassas and dectomax for coccidia that was recommended by J. Potter and was available at my co-op. But what about the whole rumen bacteria balance going from grass to grain? That's what I'm still confused about.

[anthony]

You mean Deccox which is decoquinate... More of a prevenative for Cocci than a treatment. Dectomax is a pour on for worms just like Ivomec.. .. Not a bad idea but if you are worried they actually have it you would be better off with Corid which is amprolium.. Or, even better, lol, Rumensin but that gets into a bit harder to handle product....

I really think you will be better of starting them up on straight hay out off of the mother.. Most of the guys I know who do big cattle will hold them on hay for just a few days after weaning before adding the grain or silage or whatever supplement they are feeding, others start creeping before weaning and than use hay and creep feed.. Too each their own.. With the hand feeding you would be doing of a very limited amount of grain I wouldn't worry to much about getting the rumen adjusted... 1-2 pounds a day is basically going to be like candy for them.

[Cloverbell]

Whoops. Deccox not Dectomax! bleh.

[Olga]

Sort of on the subject...

When we brought our 8 mo old heifer Sugar to the AGM this year, I heard a lot of people say "well, I don't condition mine like you do" as an explanation why she looked so good and well filled out. I was too much in a hurry at the time, but got to thinking later on about this particular comment. The thing is, I didn't condition Sugar. She was on her mom in the pasture from September 27 till June 1 (give a few days) at which time I brought her to our house for weaning. I started giving Sugar a little grain about 2 weeks prior to that and continued for the 2 weeks at home, then loaded her up for the AGM. If anything, the grain was given in an attempt for her not to loose condition from recent weaning.

The experience of going to Colorado also gave me a different perspective on the statement I've heard at previous AGM's I've went to. And that one is "My cows looked great when we left home, but you know how it is, as soon as you put them in the trailer, they loose condition". First of all, no, they won't loose condition (and by that I mean have the runs) if they aren't freaking out about being in the trailer. And I don't mean that it is necessary to trailer your cow around town every week to get her to get used to this situation, I'm saying that if you just handle you cow and she trusts you and she's been in the trailer a time or two in her life - it won't be a big deal. And you have to make the trailer comfortable for her - good deep bedding, non-slip flooring, regularly clean out the manure and make food and water available when you stop. And the second aspect, is that there's just a difference in body types of Dexters, period. I've seen a lot of lanky Dexters that have a narrower profile, even the head shape is longer and more slender.

In other words, how well your animals "condition" will not only depend on what you feed them, but on their genetics. Look at those grassfed animals on www.bakewellrepro.com/
So first access what you got. Say if you have dairy steers or heifers, remember that for the first year they will only grow their skeleton, like a great dane puppy. So you don't want to over feed them - or you'll have a giant on your hands. After the first year is when they'll put on the most muscle and fat. For dairy heifers rumen development is very important - so they have to have lots of long-stemmed forage and, according to some studies, some grain for better stomach "wrinkle" development. For your Dexter, look at him/her critically and figure out if this particular animal is closer to the beef or to the dairy type and adjust your feed according to the results you're seeing. Remember that short-leggers may put on fat too fast and are easier to overfeed. In general, they will not need any grain at all if they are on decent pasture or have access to decent hay.

[anthony]

We just weaned some Dexters this year off of some pretty rough October pasture.. The cows and calves still had swamp grass to eat but it was pretty rank and such.. We didn't supplement them. Most of the 5-6 month old calves came off the pasture fat.. I mean fat. And so did most of the cows with a few exceptions of ones that are always skinny but those are just not good cows. You can tell by their frame that they just won't carry muscle or fat for that matter..

So what I am saying is yes, some of the condition you are going to see on animals, whether tehy look "finished" or conditioned is going to be based on simple conformation and some on genetics and some on circumstances such as weather, stress and gut fill, even hair coat can play a role..

[copperhead]

Just kind of on this thread, is my take on the general condition of Dexters. I sold a bull to a family a couple of weeks ago and he and I had this conversation. He wondered why so many of the cattle he had looked at in the few weeks ,as he was shopping for a bull, were in "not so great" condition. We've had a great summer in this part of the country, lots of grass and water. I think it's because a lot of Dexter owners are not cattle people.Now, before you jump up and get all mad, hear me out..........I doesn't mean that they aren't caring and loving owners, but a lot of new owners are also new to cattle, and don't realize how much feed and care they take. I've seen a lot of really nice Dexters who really needed 100 lbs on them and they were owned by people who really cared about them, but didn't know how. A lot of new owners think they are kind of like a big dog and don't understand the feed, mineral and parasite control, that is required for them. I, along with several other breeders, saw a lot of this at the AGM show and sale. The people who brought in thin, long haired, and not thrifty looking calves and cows, and especially bulls, didn't understand why their cattle didn't do so well. It's very hard to explain that they are not taking care of the animals like they need to be taken care of, without getting a fight started. So many Dexter owners are people who moved to the country, wanted a cow, got a Dexter because of the size, and then became very disappointed because they were told that they were easy to care for. They are easy to care for, FOR A COW !!!!! I hope every breeder makes sure that when they sell an animal, to a less experienced owner, that they make themselves available to answer any questions and be able to offer up feeding and housing advise, when the animal leaves your premises. Very few take the trouble to find out what is needed to care for a cow, and then we have another unhappy owner, and mis-treated cattle.
Sorry, once again I'm rambling, but it is something we need to consider when we sell our animals.

P.J.

[Cloverbell]

P.J. I think you're spot on about all your comments. I'm laughing even.

I think the only thing that saved my herd through this last summer was the mineral program that helped them make the most of decent hay (that was supposed to be for winter feeding) and terrible (almost absent) forage/grass.

Can you elaborate about the significance of hair coat and health? Specifically - Not "slicking up" in summer I've heard is a sign of fescue toxicity. Is that just old BS or true? Almost all of mine slicked up much better this summer than last, especially the duns, but I have a couple of black cows that just look sort of woolly all year round.

[anthony]

Not slicking up can be a number of things but generally it is seen as a nutriotional problem.. Fescue adaapted animals tend to slick up faster than non adapted/tolerant but nutrition still plays a large part of this. Most folks will say a shaggy, dull coat is a worm load for the most part but I have seen it in herds that worm but don't have a good mineral program. Get your cows on a good mineral and you will be amazed at how much healthier they look. Seems to boost the endocrine system up and the coats just shine that much more.. Certain feeds really line you up for problems, for those that are feeding distillers or gluten type feeds in any quantity be forwarned that your phosp. levels are going to be super high in comparision to calcium s that is something you have to look at. also the DDG will have high Sulpher contents and this needs to be balanced by more Zinc and Thiamine. Many mineral companies will sell a balacner for distillers grains.

Last but not least the brown whither, dull coat is generally pointed to as Copper problems but have seen it with high worm loads as well.

[anthony]

Genebo, How much is a handfull and are you talking about a dry product? I am no vet so it is hard to say.. When we feed Distillers, or Gluten, we are often in the 7-8 pounds of Dry per head per day which is on the very high side.. Too high which is why we are now closer to the 2-3 pounds a day but we are still feeding a balancer mineral..

[copperhead]

Hi Clover,
I think Anthony pretty much covered your question. He really knows his "stuff". I don't know enough about fescue to answer the question. I have a fescue, clover and sercia pasture that I put the herd on in the spring, but the bermuda comes in pretty early. The only other reason for a rough coat I can think of is worms. If I get one that stays shaggy, I will usually do an extra worming on her, just in case I either missed her or didn't figure her weight right, and didn't get enough on her. I do have one that has a terrible coat, and hers is due to bad health. She has respitory problems, and no cure, so I blame her coat on that. As far as feed supplements, I give free choice minerals in the winter, and feed a 14% calf creep pellet at a rate of about 2 lbs per head. I keep round bales out for them once the grass is short and dry, usually after the first hard freeze.
What is your hay situation going to be like this year?? I know you haven't had much rain, kinda like we were the last 4 years. It's always feast or famine............P.J.