birthing problems in Dexters

[dexterfarm]

Did you open her up to look at the calf? That would tell you right away if it was PHA.

[Maple View Farm]

Hi Olga, wanted to update you all on what we are doing. I looked up research on PHA. I'm thinking that could be it. The vet said everything was swollen and they had a hard time telling what things were. There were legs though for them to put chains around so I doubt it was chondo.

We are contacting the breeder and telling him what we think and then contacting ADCA. We don't want him to be blindsided or attacked. He is new into it and I'm sure is going to learn alot like we did. There will be culling in his near future for sure.

We did not open her up because of the meds used to put her down the vet made us go right home and bury her. no other animal could come in contact with her because of the toxic drug.

[lakeportfarms]

I doubt Chondrodysplasia would have contributed to the problem, it is far more consistent with PHA. Even though the heifer is buried, you still have a pretty good chance of determining if she was a PHA carrier by testing the bull she was bred to and checking the heifers sire and dam were out of PHA lines, or even testing the heifers parents if they're still available. If you're having trouble getting cooperation for the testing from the breeder you purchased her from, by all means contact the ADCA and see if they could exert a little pressure. It is for his own interest as well to determine PHA status of his herd.

[ctownson]

Is it possible both the sire & dam were chondro carriers? Pha carriers?

[legendrockranch]

I hate to say this, however contacting the ADCA will be of little or no help. The association has nothing in place for situations like this.
A few years back I tried to institute a reporting system similar to what the Angus folks use for cases of problematic births or defects that were questionable.
It's the only way we might have a chance of heading off a new or future genetic defect.
Below is a form the American Angus Association uses.

www.angus.org/pub/defectform.pdf
Pictures must also be included with the form.

Anyway my request went nowhere.

If it is a case of PHA, until we start testing all animals for the 2 known genetic defects and having the results posted instead of on a "voluntary" basis we will continue to have these problems.

I an truly sorry your having to go through all of this, all the best to you in the future.

Barb

[Maple View Farm]

I will let you all know what comes out of talking with ADCA and the breeder. I fear it might be PHA. The vet waas saying how everthing was so swollen and hard to tell what the body parts were. I sent the whole PHA info section from the ADCA site to our vet to educate them. We also offered to have an inservice at our farm for them and any other vets to come and see our cows and meet other breeders so more of them can become educated on our breed.

I did find out today the bull we used and is the sire of this calf was tested and came back with a negative for chondo and PHA. Can anyone help us figure out how this happened then? I did look farther into the dams line and there is a Trillium on her side and on the sires line also. I'm guessing that is not good judging on the PHA article on the ADCA site. This stuff is as clear as mud and very confusing. We let our two sets of friends know what is going on so we are all evaluating what to do with the rest of these cows. We are testing our last one to see is she is a carrier of the PHA and chondo. She calved like a pro this spring so I'm guessing she is ok?

Thank you all for the good advice and help. Makes me feel a little better.

[lakeportfarms]

If the bull that was used to breed the cow is negative for PHA, then it wouldn't be a PHA affected calf and is not the cause. Both parents need to be carriers for there to be an issue, similar to Chondrodysplasia.

I would suspect your vet's original thoughts were accurate. Though the photos do not show anything unusual about the heifer, perhaps the calf was not properly presenting and finally she just got too weak to calve. The swelling may have been a result of the death of the calf.

When we started, one of our first cows was a Jersey, which we purchased already bred to a Hereford bull. We had a similar situation with her and lost both calf and cow. After many hours of contractions and the calf dying inside her, we could not pull the calf even with chains and a tractor. The only option was C section or have the vet go in an cut the dead calf up and remove it in pieces. Since the calf had been dead for some time, there was serious infection setting in to the cow and the prognosis was poor even with a c-section. We elected to put her down.

Following that, we opened up the cow to see what we could, and pulled the dead calf. It weighed nearly 100 lbs...though I know it's not the same as a live calf born this calf was huge, and clearly was going to present issues for calving.

We learned a lot from that experience, and vowed to use easy calving low birth weight sires for the future, which led us to the Dexter breed. We weigh every calf when it is born. This year we've had a couple of bulls at less than 25 lbs. We've never had one over 37 lbs. One of them out of a fairly large girl. We've not had a problem with calving since that experience with the Jersey. We've never had the urge to get another Jersey, though I was really fond of her and still smile at how here ears would always flap when I would call out her name. She was a sweet cow.

I'm terribly sorry for your loss. I'm sure most everybody here has had a sad experience or two as well. But with those situations comes a lot of experience and we're all here to help each other to avoid as many as we can.

[Olga]

Lakeportfarms is right, if the bull you used is PHA-negative, then the calf wouldn't have been a PHA-affected calf. Unlike chondro, PHA doesn't affect the phenotype, so the carrier animals look just the same as non-carriers. But when you breed two carriers together, you have a 25% chance (just like with chondro) of an affected calf ( carrying 2 PHA genes). This calf will be deformed due to excess fluid build-up. If carried full-term, the cow will most likely require a C-section to deliver such calf.

[cddexter]

mvf, in my experience, the ADCA Board will not get involved in problems between buyer and seller. They MAY, if it can be proven the breeder knew there was an issue, be able to help you and/or approach the breeder. You don't mention if you've tried to get the breeders help. Perhaps he is simply ignorant of what's going on.

She's certainly a nice looking cow. Her pelvic angle looks correct (90 degree angle between the pin/thurl/hip). You mention an exceptionally small cervix. That would definitely cause problems, and I'd think could be genetic especially if others have had the same problem. However, small cervix is another problem altogether from not catching and/or catching and aborting, which is what's going on by the sounds of it. You might be dealing with more than one issue here.

That could definitely be an issue for the Genetics Committee. With John Potter off the committee, it's lucky one of the newer members is a vet and has some training in genetics. He'd probably be the one most useful to you. I'm with Barb on the reporting issue. Too often the breed takes a back seat to saving face.

For what it's worth, you used the term 'medium leg'. There really isn't such a thing...short and long leg are old terms, still in use today unfortunately, to make polite distinction between dwarfs and nons (for those who don't want to call a spade a spade). Medium leg was coined in England by Beryl Rutherford for the Woodmagic line, to distinguish her shorter cannon boned non-carrier cattle from dwarfs and from the more gangly non carriers. It took about two months for those with carriers to glomp onto the term to describe their more proportionate carriers, which caused even more confusion.

From the photo, I'm guessing she's not a dwarf. In my exerience, she lacks the several classic features they usually have. Such a shame you've had to go through an expensive and heart wrenching experience.

Keep us posted. cheers, c.

[Maple View Farm]

Told my hubby I might get negative replies and if I do I'm done. No more posting and opening up to be attacked. Maybe this is why people keep breeding things they shouldn't is because they don't want to be made to feel dumb. Don't worry, it's like that with anything. I choose the higher road and will continue to make right the wrong and be responsible. Read everything before posting an attack.
thank you and God bless everyone who helped and cared about us!! You are all wonderful people. I am following through with what you all said to do. I will not let it go or pass it on to someone else to be hurt. We love our girls.

[dexterfarm]

I am sorry you got negative responses. I get negative responses on here sometimes to try not let it bother you.

[Morning Star Farm]

I agree with Genebo, don't go away! I for one would like to learn what your out come is in this post. I commend you for trying to get to the bottom of the issue so you can take corrective action. It would be nice if everyone would be encouraging in giving their opinions but that's not always the way it happens. Please don't let that discourage you from posting. Senior breeders on this board have a lot of experience and great advice. Learn from the ones that are trying to be helpful and keep loving your girls!

[kansasdexters]

Sometimes it's difficult to read what someone has posted and hear the words as they would have been spoken face to face. MVF suffered a loss and was feeling that grief and loss. She sought out people on this forum that might have had a similar experience, in order to gain some understanding of the situation that she'd just been through. This isn't a blame game, it's real people with real feelings that are trying to make sense of it all. It's great to be experienced and knowledgeable, but it's better to be kind and considerate. We're all in this together and whatever hurts one person, usually hurts others as well.

None of us started out knowing much. It's easy to forget how scary that can feel and how helpless and out of control we feel when things go terribly wrong. But we do better when we know better and that just takes time and a few mistakes to accomplish.

Hang in there MVF, when you love something, you're drawn to spend the time and effort needed to learn what it's all about -- and in the process, you overcome adversity and failure and achieve a very sweet success.


Patti

[legendrockranch]

I too agree with many of the comments hang in there. We also learn from what others are going through. So please stay around
and keep us posted.

Instead of hijacking this tread I started a new one titled
"Stand Tall...Let it be know" somewhat related to this thread.
under the general category.

Barb

[marion]

If I'm missing something here, I apologize in advance. The o.p. had a problem, diagnosed by a vet, and two people who bought from the same place may have had the same problem. The o.p. did not name the breeder and it did not seem like an attack...just that she knew of two others with animals from the place, same 'line'.. Did the two others have animals that seemed hard to breed, or did they have calves unable to deliver? Were the animals bred natural service or were they doing AI? If it was a failure to easily catch, it may just be that cows do not always catch on the first service whether bull bred or (& especially) with AI.
In any case, this is a chat board. We don't know who the breeder was and the o.p. was posting with her observations and asking for input. Isn't that what this board is for???
And BTW, the pic shows a pretty nice looking heifer. Sorry for your loss MVF, and please don't go away..marion