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Post by legendrockranch on Nov 11, 2012 12:46:20 GMT -5
While many of you have spoken of the good attributes of a chondro carrier, none have mentioned any of the negatives. Are you saying there aren't any?
I have heard that the carriers finish out earlier, perhaps Patty Adams can post her statistics on the two types comparing the two carrier verses non-carrier.
Here are some of my questions to you. They are based on long time breeders with well respected reputations both here and abroad, plus some of my own.
1. Chondro carriers only look beefier because of the effects of chondro itself. Hopefully Patti will be able to answer this question.
2. Some of them walk with an irregular gait. Facial features are also different.
3. Prone to arthritic problems earlier in life, plus all the complications that might go along with arthritis.
4. Milking problems, udder to low to the ground, calf unable to nurse. Hard to milk unless a raised stanchion is built because udder is to low to the ground.
5. How many show judges are made aware that our breed carries a genetic defect that can affect their body structure?
I know for a fact, not many. From first hand experience with a one on one in person conversation with Gerald Fry he was not aware of any genetic defect.
Some of these questions do not fit all carriers, it depends on the severity of the affected animal.
I am not implying or saying to get rid of carriers, but as with most conversations, even with some people that are selling carrier animals they seem to dismiss or forget to tell potential buyers the other side of the story, this thread is a perfect example of not telling the other side of the story…The proof of the pudding is the amount of animals that show up as chondro carriers on the ADCA website. Silence is not golden in this case. Those of you that test and report your results on the ADCA website I applaud you.
So breed what you like and what suits you and your buyers, just make sure all information that is given is equal, and well represented of the breed as a whole.
Barb
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Post by cddexter on Nov 11, 2012 12:46:29 GMT -5
lethal wasn't actually 'coined' a long time ago. It's what the scientific community uses as a definer of a gene that produces an offspring that won't/can't live. Somewhere recently Gene did his thing, criticizing the use of lethal and accused some of us of generating the word recently as an attempt to discredit dwarfs. I referred him to and quoted from sources both scientific and old where the word was used in relation specifically to Dexters. Not liking the word, or not having the information behind it to understand why it's used doesn't mean it's the wrong word...by any chance do you still use limb instead of leg? Not that long ago, 'leg' was considered vulgar, and too personal. It got changed to limb to be more socially 'correct' and less offensive.  Common sense prevailed, and now we are back to leg. I havne't personally checked, but my understanding is ALL cattle are mostly higher at the hip than the shoulder, which is why the show ring standards for regular breeds asks for hip measurement. Nothing to do with dwarf vs. non. Somewhere on this forum is a discussion about why dwarfs lay down fat and retain it long before their non counterparts do. It has to do with the growth curves, which act just like time-release meds: juvenile, bone, muscle, fat, in that order. Once the dwarf bone growth slows down (much earlier than in their non counterparts) they start to lay on fat. You can get a marbled dwarf at 12 months. It takes an extra year to do the same to a non. It's all about genetics and timing. And if you think all dwarfs are placid and friendly, you should have met Lily. cheers, c. |
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Post by Cascade Meadows Farm - Kirk on Nov 11, 2012 15:38:30 GMT -5
As I said before, not everybody has the same tastes in Dexters. You are working on the premise that they do. Why would you intentionally avoid breeding some "amazing chondro-Dexters" yourself when they have a demonstrable following and command good prices and show accolades? If I recall correctly, the highest price paid at the AGM was a chondro carrier 12 month old red polled heifer at $3900.00. That's not chump change. Since you already have many polled red genetics in your own herd, you already have a good start by AI'ing some of your best cows with a top notch red bull like White O'Morn chief. But you won't because you insist on selecting only those that will "breed true". I'm looking forward to the day when those that would see chondro eliminated from their herds greatly outnumber those that do choose to keep them. I'll easily sell my chondro carriers to those that love them for what they are, and because they'll be rare. For the 50% of my herd that is not, my chondro cows will wean a steer at 60 plus percent of their weight at 7 months on grass or hay alone while still maintaining an ideal BCS. I agree with Gene regarding the ease at which the chondro carriers keep condition compared to their non-carrier counterparts. Those of us that have both types see this on a daily basis. [/quote] In most all livestock, a sire is only as good as the consistent offspring that he throws. The livestock-shows are mostly worse than useless in telling me what I need to know to select a good sire. Show-winning, picture-perfect cattle can carry all sorts of hidden genetics. That's why professional cattle folks who select good bulls, look at expected progeny data, rather than looking at a show-winning picture of a bull. What the bull throws is FAR more important than what he looks like. I agree that everyone has different tastes within Dexters and I respect that. My key point is that for anyone who highly values a herd of consistently short, stocky, easy-fleshing, and VERY friendly dexters, they should only use a sire who consistently throws those traits. Many/most chondro-bulls (due to their heterozygosity) throw two different types (some much taller than others). I think that folks who enjoy using the chondro-gene could do both at the same time.... Breed a line of true-breeding and very friendly nearly 100% consistent true-short and stocky dexters.... and if they want, then sometimes use the chondro-gene on their true-shorts to get an extra-extra-short chondro-calf for lawn ornaments, pets, etc..) When I see some of the very leggy tall calves born to SOME chondro cows and bulls, I assume that a breeder doesn't really value short and stocky all that much (or they would aim to have all their calves born short and stocky, instead of just 50%). Certainly, if someone values a mixed herd of short and tall, then more power to them (but it seems odd that they would say the "Shorties" are best, but continue to breed 50% non-shorties.) If shorties are best, then why not aim for a complete herd of true-breeding, true-shorts? |
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Post by rhonda on Nov 11, 2012 16:15:05 GMT -5
Gene, a lot of carriers do have very pigeon- toed and bow legged front legs. I do go to shows and watch them stumble over their own feet and still place high in the show. I personally will never understand that. It seem worse in bulls to me than the cows. BUT that being said people pay a lot of money for the carriers. Rhonda
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Post by dexterfarm on Nov 11, 2012 16:31:21 GMT -5
Here is my bull. He is mostly woodmagic he is what I consider short I have not measured him. He is not chondro. I dont show. All of my cows are different no 2 look exactly the same. No 2 are the same height. I like all of there features and dont want every cow in my heard to look identical. I like the size of my bull not trying to make them smaller or larger then him. I do have one cow that I consider to be to tall but there is so much else about her that is great there is no way I would cull her because she is a little to tall. I hope her calves will be shorter but even if they aren't I will not cull any of them for height. I do not have any chondro in my herd but would like to have a couple. all of mine except for one cow and her heifer calf are legacy. To the best of my knowledge there are only a couple of legacy chondro cows left so the chances of me ever having a chondro is very slim.  |
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Post by Cascade Meadows Farm - Kirk on Nov 11, 2012 17:12:03 GMT -5
Here is my bull. He is mostly woodmagic he is what I consider short I have not measured him. He is not chondro..... I like the size of my bull not trying to make them smaller or larger then him. I do have one cow that I consider to be to tall but there is so much else about her that is great there is no way I would cull her because she is a little to tall. I hope her calves will be shorter but even if they aren't I will not cull any of them for height. Nice photo of a true-short bull. By selecting a good, true-breeding, true-short bull as you have done, there's no need to cull based on height. Over time, bulls such as these will naturally bring down the height of your herd. I wouldn't be afraid to breed this bull back on his own daughters and granddaughters and only cull any animals with problems (not based on height alone). If your too-tall mom gave you 2 nice true-short daughters that had all of mom's great features but in a shorter size, and if someone wanted to buy too-tall mom for their taller-herd, wouldn't you be tempted to sell too-tall mom and keep her really great just-right-short daughters? Doing this over a long period of time will give you a herd of true-short Dexters that are perfect to your eye. |
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Post by wvdexters on Nov 11, 2012 17:59:49 GMT -5
The question has been asked ... and answered by many dexter owners and breeders. The results are not going to change.
These short chondro neg. bulls are wonderful. Everyone agrees with this statement.
They can bring "short stature" to chondro-free herds. GREAT!!!! They give all breeders the opportunity to have shorter cattle. This is a WIN situation for everyone!!
Those of us who have chondro pos. girls also love these little bulls. They are a wonderful choice to breed with our shorties. I am personally excited about the fact that these bulls may be available for AI in the near future. This is another WIN situation for everyone!!
The questions seem to be:
Should chondro pos. bulls be replaced with chondro neg bulls?
Should short chondro neg bulls be used exclusively by breeders who want "shorties"?
Should breeding choices be made that will eventually replace our chondro pos dexters with chondro neg. dexters?
I believe these questions have been answered.
I do not plan to now or in the future "breed out" my chondro carriers. I do not hope that the dexter breed will be "chondro free" in the future.
I do not believe that simply height is the only thing that makes these guys special and unique. Truly give them a try if you haven't yet. Get one and see for yourself.
I do plan to breed my chondro pos girls and chondro neg girl to the best bulls I can find. I do plan to breed for health, temperament, easy calving, great lines, good feet and utters. I plan to breed for that wonderful dual purpose traditional dexter.
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Post by dexterfarm on Nov 11, 2012 18:08:43 GMT -5
Here is my bull. He is mostly woodmagic he is what I consider short I have not measured him. He is not chondro..... I like the size of my bull not trying to make them smaller or larger then him. I do have one cow that I consider to be to tall but there is so much else about her that is great there is no way I would cull her because she is a little to tall. I hope her calves will be shorter but even if they aren't I will not cull any of them for height. Nice photo of a true-short bull. By selecting a good, true-breeding, true-short bull as you have done, there's no need to cull based on height. Over time, bulls such as these will naturally bring down the height of your herd. I wouldn't be afraid to breed this bull back on his own daughters and granddaughters and only cull any animals with problems (not based on height alone). If your too-tall mom gave you 2 nice true-short daughters that had all of mom's great features but in a shorter size, and if someone wanted to buy too-tall mom for their taller-herd, wouldn't you be tempted to sell too-tall mom and keep her really great just-right-short daughters? Doing this over a long period of time will give you a herd of true-short Dexters that are perfect to your eye. No the one that I have that is taller than I would like is 17 and is the the most loving cow I have. she stays here until she dies. Just hoping for the most calves I can get from her. she gave me a heifer this year to soon to tell what her height is going to be but she sure is nice looking. She will be breed back to her sire next year. I have no plans to get rid of my bull. I do plan on keeping one of his sons as a secondary bull and then moving that secondary on after he has been used a few years. I will keep my current bull to breed my current set of cows and probably line breed to some of his ofspring depending on the outcomes. |
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Post by rhonda on Nov 11, 2012 18:26:26 GMT -5
What about the carrier cows that are so small? Do you all use carrier bulls? I would be worried about a few of the ones I've seen with a non-carrier bull. I know it is a stupid question but one I've wondered about before...
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Post by lakeportfarms on Nov 11, 2012 19:09:11 GMT -5
I think it's pretty clear that a lot of owners have very personal attachments to their cows and/or bulls. My wife and I certainly do, and even if there are a few things we'd like to improve on some of them we would never consider selling them. Half of the time we'll get bulls, and they'll go in the freezer. As for the heifers, we'll retain them or price them based on whether we want to keep them ourselves. Not everybody is looking for a $2000 heifer, and the less expensive one can still be somebody's pride and joy, even if they also have or aspire to have superior animals. We should encourage as many people as possible to become Dexter owners regardless of their personal preference for carrier/non-carriers.
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Post by Olga on Nov 11, 2012 19:32:48 GMT -5
I have the same question as Rhonda. At both the AGM and the MBDA show I've seen some extreme shorties. When I think back to our first bull, Sam, I don't remember him ever being that small. We bought him as a yearling and at that time he already looked like a small bull. He was short, true, but he didn't give the impression of "toy". Some of the shorties that I've seen in the ring look exceedingly small. Is it safe to breed them to long-leg bulls? What is the safe age of first breeding? Or are they bred exclusively by A.I.?
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Post by legendrockranch on Nov 11, 2012 20:03:24 GMT -5
I have a question or two for you, though. How many chondro carriers do you own? If none, then what is your stake in this? Do you feel that they threaten your right to keep what you please? I own no chondro carriers by choice and believe everyone has a choice to breed what they choose. Perhaps you just see what you want to see in my post... Let me repeat it again. “I am not implying or saying to get rid of carriers, but as with most conversations, even with some people that are selling carrier animals they seem to dismiss or forget to tell potential buyers the other side of the story, this thread is a perfect example of not telling the other side of the story…The proof of the pudding is the amount of animals that show up as chondro carriers on the ADCA website. Silence is not golden in this case. Those of you that test and report your results on the ADCA website I applaud you.
So breed what you like and what suits you and your buyers, just make sure all information that is given is equal, and well represented of the breed as a wholeYou are advocating eliminating chondro carriers. It's in your posts from the past. You cannot claim to be unbiased. And if your broad statement that some people selling carriers are not telling the buyers about chondro is aimed at me, you are so wrong. If you know of a single incidence of that occurring, I'd suggest you contact the ADCA ethics committee. You're out of bounds to make general accusations that you can't back up. Get over yourself, I was not referring to you, what in the world would make you think that. You are advocating eliminating chondro carriers. It's in your posts from the past. You cannot claim to be unbiased. You have selective memory, I have stated openly and on public forums but will do so again for you. I do not advocate the eliminating of chondro carriers. Show judges often judge every breed being shown at that show. They don't depend upon a breeder with an ax to grind to run in and "educate" him on how to judge cattle. They wouldn't be a good judge if they let someone try to influnce them like that. I have no ax to grind, again please reread my post. Perhaps it is you with the ax to grind. You have “tried” to bash me whenever possible, sorry it’s not working for you. If you tell a buyer about genetic problems within a breed, why not tell a Judge? Could it be that most registered breeds of cattle that carry a genetic defect can't even be registered at all? I defy you to come up with a scientific study that backs you up. I think any scientific study should come from you, backing up all that you say regarding temperament, beefiness etc of carriers. Personally I have never claimed my animals are beefier nor have a better a temperament than yours or any chondro carrier for that fact. You HAVE made those claims about carriers however. So in reality the ball is in your court to prove those claims. Gerald Fry is quite familiar with the genetics of a wide range of cattle. It's the variations in the genetics that make one breed different from another. That doesn't mean that the variations are defects. You probably misused the term "defect" when speaking to him. He's very knowledgeable. Ask him about the polled defect some time, and listen to what he tells you. There is quite a difference between polled and chondro now isn’t there!!! I know Gerald Frys opinion on polled. Once again do YOU know his opinion of chondro?  PLEASE, please call him and ask him for yourself. Than post on this forum his response. While it is true I do not own any chondro carriers, my neighbor does. He used my bull on his herd this year. I take prospective buyers over to his house to see all three colors that Dexters come in, let them see horned and polled animals. Yes even see the difference between carriers and non-carriers. My apoligies to the new folks and the regulars having to see us banter about all of this, I actually thought about not replying at all, but sometime unjust remarks have to be answered. Barb |
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Post by cddexter on Nov 11, 2012 20:05:37 GMT -5
good questions olga. The answer I give is based on what I know of the English, who've had a lot longer--and a lot more animals--and a lot more experience in selection. 15 months seems to be the number most use. Live service is just fine. A lot of English have always bred short to short. This is slowly changing as more people understand the genetics, and more people are breeding for true height, rather than genetically doctored height. At first sight, I thought there were six different 'types' of Dexter. However, the really experienced big breeders of the day ALL told me it didn't seem to matter what one looked like, another could be, and often was, different. You couldn't say a clunky really deformed toy Dexter would produce one similar. On the other hand, a really nice relatively proportionate dwarf that just looked 'beefy' was just as likely to produce a tall gangly calf as another nice one, or one of the clunky toy types. No guarantees. I can't find my photo of Torbie Sue for Gene. She was so bowlegged she could hardly walk. I can see the pic in my mind's eye, just can't put my hand on it . Sorry. You'll have to take my word for it. And, I'd like some advice: we keep hearing about how dwarfs are more beefy. I keep posting NO, it just looks more beefy because the muscles are bunched on bones that are about 15% shorter than the muscle is designed to fit on. Next thing, someone else is posting about beefier again. DWARFS ARE NOT BEEFIER. Piet Wilke, ex-president of the SA Dex assn, and the retired Dean of Agriculture at orange free state university in Blomfontein did a comparison of two steered brothers, one dwarf, one not. Both raised the same, both fed out the same. The non-dwarf had a higher saleable meat yield. Wes Patton, ex-Director and ex-president of the ADCA, and retired Head of the Department of Animal Science at UCalChico, did a comparison of two steered brothers, one dwarf, one not. Both raised the same, both fed out the same. The non-dwarf had a higher saleable meat yield. Veronica Schofield, ex Council Member, ex-president of the DCS, and geneticist, did a comparison study of two steers, one dwarf, one not. Both raised the same, both fed out the same. The non-dwarf had a higher saleable meat yield. Patti Adams, US Dexter breeder and meticulous stat collector, says her numbers show no real difference in yield. 3 trained professionals say non-dwarfs give a higher yield, one scientifically bent ordinary breeder says it's about the same. That's as close as i can get to a scientific stufy. No matter how you cut it--or the animal--dwarfs are not beefier. How can we put this one to bed? cheers, c. |
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Post by rezzfullacres on Nov 11, 2012 20:35:01 GMT -5
I have the same question as Rhonda. At both the AGM and the MBDA show I've seen some extreme shorties. When I think back to our first bull, Sam, I don't remember him ever being that small. We bought him as a yearling and at that time he already looked like a small bull. He was short, true, but he didn't give the impression of "toy". Some of the shorties that I've seen in the ring look exceedingly small. Is it safe to breed them to long-leg bulls? What is the safe age of first breeding? Or are they bred exclusively by A.I.? I have 1 chondro cow and her heifer calf, probably + but not tested. We breed strictly to a -- bull.. We wait until the heifer is 16 months before breeding....Never had a problem with breeding or calving...Just had a calf last Sat out of her and a really nice "full size" bull. Is it safe, IMO it is IF you use some common sense...... |
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Post by legendrockranch on Nov 11, 2012 20:49:14 GMT -5
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Common sense prevailed, and now we are back to leg. 
PLEASE, please call him and ask him for yourself. Than post on this forum his response.