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Post by jamboru on Nov 17, 2012 7:48:59 GMT -5
If only the lottery were as safe a bet!!
Clive, we have had a couple of calves that 'snored' like you describe, both from different families, and ours are all Free-By-Inheritance.
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Post by Clive on Nov 17, 2012 9:00:54 GMT -5
If only the lottery were as safe a bet!! Clive, we have had a couple of calves that 'snored' like you describe, both from different families, and ours are all Free-By-Inheritance. IF your calves "snorted/snored" like mine, then I would definitely have them tested? I've certainly heard of at least one error in testing and free-by-inheritence could mean one incorrect test being cascaded down and multiplied! |
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Post by legendrockranch on Nov 17, 2012 12:21:19 GMT -5
Clive, not sure if you remember or not. Back in January 20, 2012
I sent you a link showing pictures of many types of Angus dwarfs.
You might want to go back and see if any of those pics look like your animal. The last dwarf in Angus I've heard about they nick named "itty bitty", as far as I know they are still trying to figure that one out.
Sorry to go off topic folks.
Barb
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Post by Cascade Meadows Farm - Kirk on Nov 17, 2012 12:27:57 GMT -5
If you prefer truly short dexters and want a complete herd of them and want to avoid most all of the complex DNA-testing headaches...... You can have a 100% true-short herd if you use a true-short bull like this one in the ADCA AI Catalog.  Lane's End Microcosm ADCA #022383 Horned Black, Carries Dun, Doesn't Carry Red (ED/ED B/b) Non-Carrier of Chondrodysplasia Non-Carrier of PHA Parentage: Sire Qualified 39 1/2" Shoulder and Hip Height @ 3 years www.dextercattle.org/AI%20Bulls.htmUsing a bull like this and breeding him back on his daughters, one could easily create an entire herd of true-short Dexters..... mostly ALL under 40" No Dwarfism and No Need for DNA Testing |
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Post by jamboru on Nov 17, 2012 17:34:07 GMT -5
Clive, Au has had mandatory pv since herdbook inception. Not often but more than once we have had a calf who snores quite audibly.
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Post by lakeportfarms on Nov 17, 2012 19:59:04 GMT -5
Kirk, we have 10 of Microcosm's straws that we traded with Zippy for 10 of Mike's straws a while back. We intend to use Mikey on our chondro cows at their next breeding. One of our heifers that Zippy bought from us a couple of years ago, LPFM Pixie, I think will be bred to him in the future as well. Pixie is quite short for a carrier.
So although I know you are a firm believer in avoiding chondro altogether, as you can see there are many of us who have been selecting true short, non-chondro with chondro pairings.
I also don't consider pulling 30 or 40 tail hairs and sending them off to UCDavis or TAMU "complex DNA testing headaches". That would mean genotyping is a headache, which has to be done for bulls anyway, and frankly at this point, I'm in favor of genotyping the females now in order to be able to claim their offspring as obligate non-carriers of PHA or chondro, though I doubt it will ever happen.
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Post by ladena on Nov 17, 2012 20:33:59 GMT -5
Lakeport, do you mean that animals can be listed as obligate non-carriers of PHA/Chondro without proof? If that is the case, I for one do not think that is right.
We went through the expense of making sure that all of our adult animals are genotyped and tested for PHA and Chondro. There are a few chondro carriers but we are PHA free. Some of the results have been posted on the website and the others should be in the next week or so. Our intention is to genotype our calves so they will be sire and dam qualified, and obligate PHA free but we will still have to test our possible Chondro carriers. To think that we went through the time and expense to have paperwork to prove our results and others just get by on their word is a little disheartening to say the least.
I'm hoping I read that wrong.
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Post by lakeportfarms on Nov 17, 2012 21:42:16 GMT -5
Ladena,
You're doing it right. And as Gene said, it's true regarding obligate status.
It's a big expense to be sure, especially with a fairly large herd. You should use your extensive testing as a selling point with your customers over those who don't do all the testing, including genotyping.
Going back to Kirk's statement, DNA testing for chondro is no more complicated than genotype, color, or PHA. If people choose to use the claim of a chondro and PHA free herd, they should have all their adults tested and genotyped, and they should have the offspring of these adults genotyped as well to prove parentage verification.
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Post by kansasdexters on Nov 17, 2012 23:28:24 GMT -5
We have a fairly large herd of registered Dexters and produce around 25 Dexter calves each year. All of our breeding stock (bulls, AI-bulls, and cows) are genotyped and all of the breeding stock female calves and bull calves are sire and dam qualified. We don't genotype the steers, but we do register them to have complete calving records on all of our cows. All of our cows and bulls are PHA and Chondro tested and the offspring of any Chondro-carriers or PHA-carriers are tested and reported. We also test for color, A2 Beta Casein, beef trait markers, and dairy trait markers. Knowing the genetics (as much as can be known) of the animals that we are selectively breeding is a very efficient way of determining which animals are the most desirable to retain as the next generation of registered breeding stock. It's also our "gift" to the next generation of Dexter owners and breeders. It's the right thing to do, whether or not it's required by any Association.
Patti
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Post by Cascade Meadows Farm - Kirk on Nov 18, 2012 1:46:19 GMT -5
Here's another simple approach for guaranteeing a chondro-free herd.
Step 1. Build a good fence.
Step 2. Acquire QUALITY non-carrier starting stock for your herd
Step 3. Test them all for PHA and Chondrodysplasia (1-time test)
Step 4. Eliminate all carriers (if any)
Step 5. CLOSE THE HERD (no more new dna allowed in)
Step 6. Breed for decades with no DNA testing of any sort required again (unless it's forced upon you).
Step 7. Select what you desire and heavily cull the rest.
With a guaranteed clean herd, ongoing parentage testing is mostly unnecessary (unless forced upon you), but if you maintain a herd sprinkled with carriers, then parentage testing becomes more critical and maybe it should be MANDATORY for those infected herds.
It is interesting and understandable that folks with infected animals in their herds seem to be keenly interested in full parentage testing. I would be too if I had ever had any carriers on our farm.
PS. Of course, Patti is the queen of intense record keeping (of which we are all VERY grateful).... So I hope she continues with her approach to everything (and ignores my posting completely)
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Post by lakeportfarms on Nov 18, 2012 7:40:00 GMT -5
Patti is the model that we should all strive for in terms of testing and record keeping regardless of whether there are chondro or PHA animals in the herd or not. Few will ever approach her level, but genotyping of both sire and dam should be the minimum.
A fence worthy of a maximum security prison and keeping only Dexters without PHA or chondro does not guarantee the veracity of the breeder. I could build a small chondro free polled herd with a small Dexter bull and lowine Angus cows and few here could recognize the difference. Our 2 lowline cows were 41" at the hip (both went to a farm in Ohio a couple of years ago). They both delivered Dangus heifers for 3 straight years out of our Dexter bull, none of whom were chondro carriers . I recently saw one of the Dangus heifers at the farm of the purchaser (now 4 years old) and I'd be surprised if she was more than 39-40" tall.
If Dexters grow in average size in the future while others breeds like the Lowline Angus and Herefords stay true to the shorter model, they will siphon off potential Dexter owners. Building a "true short" Dexter herd is an admirable goal which we should strive for no matter what, but I'll repeat this one last time and then I'm done, that neither Lowline or Hereford breeds (without the introduction of chondro into them) will ever approach the "WOW" factor of a 36" chondro carrier Dexter cow with a 2-3 gallon/day udder feeding a non-carrier bull calf at weaning that's only a few inches shorter than she is.
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Post by cddexter on Nov 18, 2012 11:03:59 GMT -5
Sorry, Hans, my evil twin just couldn't resist. Since you all know my opinion about using a lethal gene to artificially bring the height down, let my twin say that:
I think it's an even bigger "WOW" factor when the unsuspecting new owner of that cute 36" Dexter cow gets a bulldog, or has a non-carrier heifer calf at weaning that's only a few inches shorter than she is, and they watch her grow into a 46 inch cow. Only difference in my scenario is the owner isn't impressed anymore. ;D
If you and Gene want to breed chondro carriers, go for it. Kirk and I and a few others will continue to work to produce look-alikes with the same termperament and frugal feed requirements. Just let us do as much promotion of our 'version' as you do of yours. Be interesting to see which type is the most popular in 50 years.
cheers, c.
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Post by Cascade Meadows Farm - Kirk on Nov 18, 2012 11:20:56 GMT -5
We also need to consider that if our processes become too overly scientific and too overly burdensome, the average simple folks who want to keep one bull and one or two cows on their homestead (eating the boys calves, and registering the girl calves), may be scared away.
Liquid nitrogen, and DNA labs are interesting and useful for some science-minded folks, but many folks want to keep it simple on their homesteads. Hopefully there is room for both approaches.
Dexters can be very simple and easy-to-raise, small and friendly, the best beef you've ever tasted, and milk-able too. The perfect homestead cow.
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Post by Cascade Meadows Farm - Kirk on Nov 18, 2012 15:43:23 GMT -5
Sometimes a long legged calf will exhibit exactly the same temperament as the shorties. It's remarkable when a long legged bull like Armstrong behaves as well as he does. A bull has to meet all the other requirements before I can consider him and the most important requirement is temperament. I strongly agree. Sweet temperament is indeed, the most important and key defining trait in dexters. Ongoing selection for temperament, along with strict culling of any misfits can give you an entire herd of very nice behaving, shorter-legged, small, non-chondros, with nice conformation. I'll bet that with continued breeding around Armstrong of Paradise, you could develop an entire herd of shorter-legged, nice-conforming, nicely behaved non-chondro dexters with super sweet temperaments. Less than great behavior is now an extreme rarity in the bulls on our farm (all non-chondro). We usually have 3 to 7 breeding-age bulls at any given time and they're my best buddies. Good behaving non-chondro bulls are a given on our farm. PS. Maybe you should offer your Angus friend some semen out of Armstrong of Paradise (non-chondro, true-short). PPS. I wish we would ONLY USE the terms "Short Legged" and "Long Legged" to describe the length of legs and not as a secret code for "Chondro" vs. "Non-Chondro". There are plenty of short-legged animals that are non-chondro. |
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Post by sharethelegacy on Nov 18, 2012 17:20:53 GMT -5
Every Dexter in the Legacy Registry has been genotyped. All calves are parentage confirmed. When the parents are also tested for A2, PHA, or CHONDRO, Legacy offers oblicate certificates to the owners. Legacy has always searched for ways to offer the best services at the lowest prices to owners and the obligate report is the latest. It makes little sense to pay for unnecessary tests so the obligate form gives owners a report for their records or to show potential buyers.
Legacy Registry
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