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Post by lakeportfarms on Nov 30, 2012 9:11:20 GMT -5
Thank you Olga. As I said previously, testing has been both a blessing and a curse, as it gives the ability to breed around it, but it gives the opponents a means of trying to ban it. I prefer to use it for the good tools it provides.
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Post by marion on Nov 30, 2012 9:35:49 GMT -5
Hi Patti My comment was not directed at you. I agree that valuable genetics must be saved, but very very few breeders to my knowledge are following a plan such as yours. Kudos to you for doing it properly! My comment was to those who are 'head-in-the-sand' because they have 'never had a problem', and those who do test, perpetuate and sell on carriers because the PHA gene needs two to tango, so they figure what's the problem as long as one parent is PHA free.
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Post by Cascade Meadows Farm - Kirk on Nov 30, 2012 11:19:39 GMT -5
Marion, Because by testing, reporting and registering PHA-carriers, I believe that we have the best chance of eliminating PHA from the breed. I am following that course and my herd will be PHA-free within 5 years. Since I have tested, reported, and registered my herd, it could actually be PHA-free in 1 year, but I would lose some valuable genetics that I think are worth salvaging. I don't sell PHA-carriers, but I do test, report, and register them and I will breed them for a limited period in order to keep what is worth keeping. That is not "sad" and that is not perpetuating a genetic defect, it is an honest and practical approach to the problem. Patti I support that approach 100%, giving breeders plenty of time to extract all the good genes they need to replace the carrier. So now, back to the absolute fact that we will eventually find a 4th defect gene, then a 5th defect, then a 6th defect in Dexters.... (all similar-ish to PHA)...... Should we have a policy that says when they are found... 1. The association will REQUIRE that defect carriers be tracked. 2. The association will REFUSE to register any suspected calves until they have been tested, and ALL TESTS MUST BE SENT TO REGISTRAR. 3. ALL registered carriers will be noted in online pedigree systems 4. ALL registered carriers will remain registered for life 5. Three years after the genetic defect is discovered in the breed, NEW carrying calves will be NOT be allowed to be registered. 6. Even after the window closes on registering new carriers (3 years after discovery), breeders may continue to breed (for life) from their existing registered carriers, but can only register non-carrying calves.
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Post by kansasdexters on Nov 30, 2012 11:24:16 GMT -5
Hi Kirk,
Great! Here's another thought, what if the Association(s) provided an incentive for Dexter breeders to test, report, and register their carrier and non-carrier animals? Let's say the Association(s) adopt a policy that reduced the registration fee by $5 for each animal that was registered with a PHA-test report and reduced the registration fee by $10 for each animal that was registered with both a Chondro-test report and a PHA-test report. This incentive would apply to both carrier and non-carrier registrations. It would encourage and reward Dexter breeders for their efforts to test and report. It would be a positive approach to addressing these issues.
Patti
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Post by lakeportfarms on Nov 30, 2012 11:41:45 GMT -5
Make the change to number 5 and either eliminate #6 or modify it to exclude chondrodysplasia, and it would be acceptable.
The barn door (pun intended) has been wide open for chondrodysplasia and to a lesser extent PHA for a number of years now. We have tests for both, but for people who have built substantial herds around chondrodysplasia in particular would be adversely impacted by barring registry of future calves. As Patti and others have pointed out with great clarity and supporting information, chondrodysplasia provides some unique benefits to some breeders that should not be discarded.
Make the standards too difficult to adhere to and you will further encourage a lack of reporting and monitoring of current and/or future issues.
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Post by lakeportfarms on Nov 30, 2012 11:48:58 GMT -5
Patti, your approach would work well provided that we don't bar the future registration of chondro or PHA carrier calves. But if Kirk's proposal is followed, the financial incentives for not testing are far greater than the discount on registrations. I believe that eventually PHA will become less and less of an issue, for other than preserving certain genetics it has no fans in the Dexter community. Chondrodysplasia is another story.
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Post by Dahdo on Nov 30, 2012 11:59:46 GMT -5
What? Is this a consensus starting to form?? Group hug!
Couple of questions: On #1, what would be tracked, how would tracking work, and how will associations enforce/require it? On #2, what would the criteria be for "suspected calves"? On #3, YES! On #4, for "life" or in perpetuity?
I agree with Hans on the rewording of 5 and 6, as long as chondro carriers are noted in the online pedigree. I think Patti has a good idea, i.e. carrot vs stick, to get people to test and report, but I have some concern that it will not be 100% effective.
I would also like to be able to get obligate status for PHA and chondro through parentage verification--but I suppose the devil is in the details.
Here's to you all, cheers, Dave
1. The association will REQUIRE that defect carriers be tracked.
2. The association will REFUSE to register any suspected calves until they have been tested, and ALL TESTS MUST BE SENT TO REGISTRAR.
3. ALL registered carriers will be noted in online pedigree systems
4. ALL registered carriers will remain registered for life
5. Three years after the genetic defect is discovered in the breed, NEW carrying calves will be NOT be allowed to be registered.
6. Even after the window closes on registering new carriers (3 years after discovery), breeders may continue to breed (for life) from their existing registered carriers, but can only register non-carrying calves.
[/quote]
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Post by Cascade Meadows Farm - Kirk on Nov 30, 2012 12:06:31 GMT -5
Couple of questions: On #1, what would be tracked, how would tracking work, and how will associations enforce/require it? On #2, what would the criteria be for "suspected calves"? On #4, for "life" or in perpetuity? 1. The association will REQUIRE that defect carriers be tracked. 2. The association will REFUSE to register any suspected calves until they have been tested, and ALL TESTS MUST BE SENT TO REGISTRAR. 3. ALL registered carriers will be noted in online pedigree systems 4. ALL registered carriers will remain registered for life 5. Three years after the genetic defect is discovered in the breed, NEW carrying calves will be NOT be allowed to be registered. 6. Even after the window closes on registering new carriers (3 years after discovery), breeders may continue to breed (for life) from their existing registered carriers, but can only register non-carrying calves. A rule could be put in place that refuses registration of any new calves from suspect stock (after the 3-year window closes). A rule could be put in place that REQUIRES ALL EXISTING TESTS BE SUPPLIED TO REGISTRAR (under penalty of losing membership - that's how it works in Angus registries). Criteria for suspect = in the case of PHA, any descendants from Wheatear. The genetics committee would have to evaluate each case to determine what makes a animal suspect. Yes, registered carriers remain registered in perpetuity.
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Post by wdd on Nov 30, 2012 12:26:14 GMT -5
Are we going to include parentage verification as a requirement for registration? What prevents an unscupulous or careless breeder from registering a calf with the wrong parentage? Mistakes happen and there could be 'accidental' breedings to PHA carrier bulls registered under a different bull on the same farm. If they can't register calves from suspected lines there is an incentive to be sloppy with the paperwork.
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Post by lakeportfarms on Nov 30, 2012 12:29:07 GMT -5
I'll add one more thing to consider:
As Kirk has mentioned, there are slightly more than 300 chondro reported Dexters in the registry out nearly 30,000 registered Dexters past and present. Of course many of them are deceased and many of them were registered before a test became available to confirm their chondro status, but at the same time there could be quite a few of the 300 odd reported carriers that are now deceased. So the living number of chondro carriers in total are probably 300 or fewer according to the registry alone. We all know the number is far higher than that.
Unless the Association is going to go to every farm and test every Dexter, or demand the members do it, there will be unreported chondro (and PHA) carriers out there. Unless the Association requires the genotyping of all females and the genotyping of their progeny, and compares the results, there will be (unethical) ways to work around the banning of chondro-positive Dexters using dams who have calved a bull (now a steer) who now suddenly had a heifer instead, etc...
Some (actually few) of us have been proactive and have VOLUNTARILY tested and published our results. We even put our pictures of our herd in the registry, all of them. You can look at most of them and see they are chondro carriers. Unless each animal is verified, the burden of banning all chondro positive calves will fall squarely on the shoulders of those who have been the most responsible and proactive to date, even when they didn't have to be. That is patently unfair to those members who have shown the highest integrity and invested considerable money not only in the value of their herd but in testing and publishing the results.
This applies to PHA as well.
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Post by lakeportfarms on Nov 30, 2012 12:30:53 GMT -5
Heh, Gary...Great minds think alike I guess My post was longer or I would have seen yours.
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Post by Cascade Meadows Farm - Kirk on Nov 30, 2012 12:36:33 GMT -5
Hi Kirk, Great! Here's another thought, what if the Association(s) provided an incentive for Dexter breeders to test, report, and register their carrier and non-carrier animals? Let's say the Association(s) adopt a policy that reduced the registration fee by $5 for each animal that was registered with a PHA-test report and reduced the registration fee by $10 for each animal that was registered with both a Chondro-test report and a PHA-test report. This incentive would apply to both carrier and non-carrier registrations. It would encourage and reward Dexter breeders for their efforts to test and report. It would be a positive approach to addressing these issues. Patti I love the carrot approach. Offer a carrot to encourage folks to do the right thing, but then carry a (BIG) stick to manage those who won't take the carrot. We could (in the very near future), mark all existing suspected carriers in the pedigree system with a "Suspected Carrier" code. So the choices would be NON-Carrier, Suspected Carrier, and Carrier Calves from Suspected-Carriers would NOT be eligible for registration until the parents were tested or the calf is tested. In the case of PHA, ALL wheatear descendents would be considered "Suspect-Carriers" unless tested otherwise (obligate tests allowed). In the case of Chondro, all dexters are considered suspect unless descending from tested animals. Now perhaps this is something that gets announced, then implemented a year later to give folks time to prepare.
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Post by lakeportfarms on Nov 30, 2012 12:48:35 GMT -5
Kirk, you still haven't addressed how I would be compensated for my (now 14) chondro carrier cows and/or bulls in my herd, including the 50% of the calves that I would never be able to register, or offer to others who are interested in raising REGISTERED Dexter chondro positive herds themselves.
You are throwing out the baby with the bath water, and asking for another split in the association. It is never going to happen. Rather than trying to sneak your chondro elimination strategy in with the trojan-horse of other (potential) genetic issues, why don't you focus on what CAN be accomplished with more support than what you would receive with your "ALL OR NOTHING" approach.
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Post by wvdexters on Nov 30, 2012 12:51:03 GMT -5
Hi Guys! Thought I'd give this a try. I've been staying away from this thread hoping it would not turn into a battleground like the last one. But.... Anyone who believes it was a "good thing" should go back and re-read these posts. No matter what you believe on this issue: things were said, cruel things, accusations, misinformation abounded..... Come on guys WE are better than this.
The problem here is we DO NOT AGREE as a MEMBERSHIP that chondro is a genetic defect that should be bred out of our registered dexters. THE CORE ISSUE. Going round and round, restating and restating, hurting and arguing, DOES NOT change this simple fact. SO WHY!! do we keep repeating this. I once read "The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and over and expecting a different result." By this definition it is an insane action for us to keep going at this and each other on this issue. So now, today we need to acknowledge some of us prefer chondro neg dexters and will breed this type of registered dexter and others prefer chondro pos dexters and will continue to breed this type of registered dexter. Any attempt for either group to limit, the breeding of either body type of Registered Dexter will be unwanted by the breeders in that group. Let's get rid of all this adversarial language Example _______ vs________ Of course there will be strife. It was set up that way. To cause competition and strife. Bad move for everyone. Come on, Let's go about this the right way!!
We talk of Chondro neg short cattle. As I said before GREAT. Super Great. Please continue with these efforts. We all agree this is a very worthwhile goal. GO FOR IT. And good luck. We are all excited about this. I say this is a worthy goal. They definitely fit into the dexter breed description. But it is just a goal. The "herds" aren't here now. We have a few great animals. Let's breed more. Work together. Let's see what we get!!
Now IMO What this thread should be about. Let's leave chondro out of it. A chondro carrier is no more likely to bring new genetic issues into the genepool as are the chondro negs. If we are talking about GENETIC DEFECTS now and future we need to guard and protect ourselves from. Now that's a thread worth getting into. IMO
If a new genetic issue were to show up in the dexter herd we should have a way to detect, and protect the herd. Perhaps if this had been done earlier with PHA when the first affected calves started showing up it would not have become so widespread. If we had nipped it in the bud!! I liked the idea of documenting and reporting genetic problems like the births of malformed calves and these types of issues. Issues that are not acceptable in the dexter herd. But.....do it the right way. Working together, helping each other, providing the right atmosphere not an atmosphere of accusations and fear. This should be our goal. Anything less will hurt the breed. We should encourage and promote dexter breeders into the daylight not force them into hiding their issues. Not registering their animals and hiding problems is exactly the opposite response, causing widespread problems. We have seen this already in PHA.
But here we are. PHA is a reality in our breed. But we know now and I believe have taken great steps towards solving this issue. The word is getting out. More and more people (breeders/owners) are learning of it. And Yes some are just now getting the information. Not everyone is involved with our registries and forums. We need to bring people in; not alienate. We will all be better for it. Dexters will be better for it. Where I live we do not have many dexters. I have only met a few fellow owners/breeders most on this site and only a very few face-to-face. Of the few I have met I keep hearing the same thing over and over. They do not want to be involved with registries, they are tired of the hassels; they do not like the forums, too much bickering and infighting. Waste of time. Just want to live and enjoy my animals. Register a few for sale and eat the rest. This is a huge problem Guys!!! This is what we need to fix. From the inside..... If we continue on as we are doing it doesn't matter what plans we make or push through. A lover of dexters must work for all large and small breeders alike. As I said the facts about PHA are getting out, testing is being done. People are learning. No one is excited when the results come back YEA PHA pos! It is being bred out. Steps are being taken. People are trying. There will always be unscrupulous people in every walk of life. Unfortunate but true. But Lets work together, get the word out, give the people the info they need and we will solve this. That is the answer. Nothing else will work.
I don't mean to sound like a cheer leader but Think about it. If it is the in-fighting, backbiting, stinging remarks, and down right rude behavior that is chasing people away What are we Accomplishing? I myself have been stung more than once here. And it DOES hurt all of us. Some members have been absolutely called out and ridiculed for their views. Picking out little things and ignoring the whole intent of their post. We make ourselves look bad. No wonder so many have left. Think of the many names we no longer see here. Think of the splits. I almost left this forum and quite frankly am still sitting on the fence about it. Things must change.
Live and Let Live. We all know the Dexter Breed Description. For goodness sake If you gottem, loveem.
As for AI bulls. We must be very careful here. Testing is good in fact it is GREAT. But if we make it so tight that only a small few get through. This could be a huge mistake. We are not all large breeders with the ability to follow some of these protocols being discussed. Who is to say the genetic problem/ anomaly will show up right away. Some do, some don't. Who knows what detriment we may do to the breed while trying to make the "perfect" dexter. What ever you personally hold this to be. This new genetic issue may not show until the animals get older, maybe much older. What if this new unknown anomaly does not show itself until the affected animals are 5 yrs or older? Think about it. If a bull passes the testing protocol described in this thread and is very heavily used (as he would be due to the very limited choices that would be available) what could happen. History could look back and see "greatest thing ever" or "catastrophe". I say this because we talk of genetics like we have everything figured out, like we have a full and complete knowledge of this topic. But we do not. Science is in the very early stages in this field and we (humans) have so much to learn. We think we know the answers but let's face it we don't even know all the questions to ask yet. See the Problem. Let's just remember to be very careful. Let's not screw this thing up.
I personally believe in genotyping both males and females and parentage testing on all. If genetics are important, this is the only way to be positive we know what we are dealing with. There are just too many tall dark handsome postmen out there. LOL
Enjoy your dexters!!! Pretty day outside. Go play with them. They'll love it.
And please read this knowing my intention is to make us all think. Our actions will have great impact on this rare breed. There just aren't that many out there.
And I think I can possibly bring to light the reason for the small number of registered chondro carriers. Could it be that people know (by visual) they are carriers and therefor choose not to pay to test for what is already obvious to them. I must say I am guilty of this myself. Never ever thought about it. I have three heifers. Caitlyn came to me fully tested. She is chondro pos, PHA neg, A2 and has been color tested. All done by the breeder. This was so neat all testing done; very beautiful girl. I tested my other girls myself. Both are A2 and PHA neg. The breeder explained the chondro issue to me fully. He showed me the differences in body types and explained the girls were one each. Visually; they had not been formally tested. I chose to test Sprig as she was in that "could be "area. I did not test Kate since she was obviously a shortie and I was keeping her for breeding. I planned to test all calves from her for chondro before registration and sale. I bet I'm not the only one. That could explain the numbers question.
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Post by kansasdexters on Nov 30, 2012 12:57:39 GMT -5
Hi Kirk,
I don't believe that you can beat people into submission (with a "BIG" stick) and expect them to have a positive attitude toward the task at hand. That approach doesn't work with cattle and it doesn't work with people.
The choice to register or not to register belongs to the owner/breeder. The choice to test or not to test belongs to the owner/breeder. The choice to belong to a breed Association, belongs to the owners and breeders. If you beat on them, people will leave, they don't have to "submit".
What the Association can do is to offer resources, education, and encouragement to owners and breeders so that they have a constructive path to follow and well defined goals and milestones to achieve. The Association can keep track of, and report on progress made towards these goals. The Association can recognize and celebrate the achievements and accomplishments of its members, as a group, and as individuals (thereby encouraging others to model the desired behaviors).
But here's the catch, it has to be leadership by example. There is no credibility in the Association's policy, if the leadership isn't doing it 100%. They cannot ask of others what they do not ask of themselves.
Patti
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