jamshundred
member
Help build the Legacy Dexter Cattle "Forever" Genotype database
Posts: 289
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Post by jamshundred on Dec 1, 2012 15:42:10 GMT -5
Gene,
While you are searching keep your eye out for an article on dehorning that published research showing that it is not possible to give enough pain-killing anesthetic to a horned animal to alleviate pain during the dehorning procedure on an adult horned animal.
This article gave the research results of various methods of dehorning, the heart rates and brain activity that were recorded depending on the procedure and different points during the procedure. It was very detailed.
Judy
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Post by lakeportfarms on Dec 2, 2012 6:49:32 GMT -5
I think we all agree that horns provide a function for cattle to defend themselves in some environments. Our Scottish Highlands and Dexters use them as a visual reminder to others around them to stay out of their space when they don't want another cow near them at times. A shake of the head and the message is delivered without them having to move their feet. However, as majestic as their horns are, our Scottish Highlands have never once used them toward us, or threatened us with them. Cows genetically born without horns require other means of defense or warnings to predators or their herd. They have to move their feet and "charge at" what is threatening them. Angus are known as a very aggressive breed, and my wife and I have personal experience with their aggressiveness, particularly when they are new mothers. It is the closest to being threatened or injured that either of us have ever encountered. Not once have we ever been or felt like we were threatened by either our Dexters or Scottish Highlands. Does the lack of horns lead to a more aggressive nature overall because of their perceived vulnerability without the horns? I think it might. P.S. Our nephew spent 30 minutes practicing his lasso technique on that Highland cow that day. She never budged. Adding to that, she had never seen him and had absolutely no familiarity with him before he started tossing the lasso at her...
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Post by laughingllama75 on Dec 2, 2012 9:36:18 GMT -5
Funny pic of your nephew. The cow is like, "ok little human, do whatever you got to.....I will just keep chewing my cud". LOL. Thanks for sharing the pics! Nice highlands.....we used to raise them (and I loved them dearly) but switched to the lovely Dexters.
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Post by wvdexters on Dec 2, 2012 10:12:12 GMT -5
What great photos and very neat cows!!!
And I agree with what you have said. I have owned Angus, jerseys and crosses. They were much more excitable and very flighty. The young angus/jersey bull we raised (hornless) was extremely dangerous. He had to go to freezer camp earlier than planned because of his aggression. When approached he would stare, paw the ground, snort and run at you. He would even buck and throw himself on the ground as a display. He caught me crossing the far field two different times. If Liz my old farm dog had not been there, I don't know. He trapped me against the barbed wire fence, I had no where to go. She held him off biting his nose and legs until I managed to get out. I was pretty bruised and cut up but she got me out. It wasn't long after we completely got out of cattle. Sold some and butchered the rest. It was not until many years later when I found Dexters on the internet that I even considered getting cattle again. Our dexters are so sweet and gentle. They are perfect.
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Post by Cascade Meadows Farm - Kirk on Dec 2, 2012 13:44:27 GMT -5
Even though I strongly prefer polled animals, I don't love the idea of de-horning. I've been using an excellent heterozygous polled bull for a while (his short and thick stature and EXTREME friendliness outweigh his hidden horned gene). We've been getting some horned calves in our entirely polled herd for the first time.
I've got one very short and thick red horned 18 month-old girl (Cascade's Charlotte), that's out of 2 polled parents and 4 polled grandparents. I may sell her, but it will be hard to part with her. I can't imagine removing her horns (ouch!). Maybe the rubber-banding process would be easier, but I just couldn't do it to her.
When I go out with my herd, they mob me for back rubs. If I try to walk away too soon, they'll cut me off and stop me for a back-rub. I don't provide treats other than back rubs. I wouldn't want an entire herd of horned animals mobbing me, but I have to say that I rather like the specialness of my horned girl (even though I've been accidentally bumped by her horns a couple of times... ouch!).
I also sold a pair of horned steer calves to someone who was going to eat them, but they're turning out so very nice that the owner may attempt to train them as a working team of oxen, instead of eating them.
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Post by legendrockranch on Dec 2, 2012 14:07:29 GMT -5
"Horns and thermoregulation" I know I have posted the above information before, but here it is again. Below is a quote from the article. The whole article is linked below. Therefore temperate cattle breeds; such as the Dexter originating from south west Ireland, the Hereford originating from England, the Devon cattle also from England and many others will have horns but these are not a major part of their cooling process. In fact, according to the research quoted above their horns are adapted to restrict heat loss. www.animalwelfareapproved.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/TAFS-11-Horns-and-Thermoregulation.pdfBarb
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Post by lakeportfarms on Dec 2, 2012 17:17:51 GMT -5
Our Highlands just stand in the pond for their thermoregulation. I'd post a picture, but I have to get out to watch one of our Dexters calve who is circling around with her nose to the ground. Healthy HEIFER PLEASE!!!
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Post by marion on Dec 2, 2012 17:20:06 GMT -5
I can't speak for cattle/horns/extreme heat in the US, but I can say that with our Canadian hot summers, winter cold, and the even harder conditions when it rains hard and there is mud and cold and windchill before freeze-up, the Dexters both horned and dehorned do just fine. They grow lovely thick coats that shed water. Even when covered with ice they are toasty warm and dry in the woolly under layer. For any stock expected to thrive with no artificial shelter, proper feeding is the key. Dexters in Ireland did not have to cope with such weather extremes, so I find it hard to believe that their horns developed much capability to either dissipate or retain heat. ps:Starting heifer chant for lakeport ;D
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Post by legendrockranch on Dec 2, 2012 17:25:24 GMT -5
Whenever you see me post on a thread whose subject is polled, or see Barb post on a thread whose subject it horned, pull up the drawbridge and alert the sentries. The bastions are being stormed. In my opinion that comment was totally uncalled for and rude plus a personal attach on me. GET A LIFE. As you can see from my post. I made NO comment about how I felt about the about the article, I simply posted an article. Show us your articles that disprove or prove anything different. I specifically stayed away from getting involved in the conversations about genetic defects. Though I could have very easily made statements. You had once had referred to me as you "stalker" look who's doing the stalking Go out and hug you Dexter's, maybe they will listen to you. Barb
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Post by lakeportfarms on Dec 2, 2012 17:39:46 GMT -5
Marion, the heifer chant didn't work. But we did have a healthy bull. I think dun but of course it is dark here now and he's all wet. But our flashlights seem to show a taupe color nose.
Pilar and Mike's calf moved up to December 2nd, from January 16th last year. Her calf the year before was in mid-February. We leave the bull in full time. Good fertile mom and sire!
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Post by wvdexters on Dec 2, 2012 17:56:02 GMT -5
Congratulations that all went well. Make sure to get us some pictures and tell us the little fellow's name.
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Post by marion on Dec 2, 2012 18:07:48 GMT -5
Congrats on the successful birth ;D Pictures expected by tomorrow!!
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Post by rezzfullacres on Dec 2, 2012 20:33:00 GMT -5
There is an art and a skill to dehorning.....We have dehorned well over 500 animals, never had a problem while using an electric or propane iron. One year we switched to paste and had about a 10% rate of incomplete dehorning job, similar to Genes picture. We strictly use the iron now and no issues....The trick is to burn deep enough and twist the iron to ensure a complete tissue killing burn....We dehorn any crossbred steers to maximize our return on them....
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Post by lakeportfarms on Dec 2, 2012 20:33:51 GMT -5
Generally the earlier the dehorning the more successful the result. Around the first week or two is ideal. Although we could do it ourselves, our vet charges us $10 to do it, including a generous dose of lidocaine around the horn areas. He's done many thousands and his experience shows. The calves don't like the shot too much, but generally do fine for the dehorning (we use the iron).
We have had some older calves done using the "Barnes" method, which are like scoops that you place over the horn and pull the handle apart. It is more traumatic at the initial process, and best done (in our area) November through May to avoid fly season so extraordinary precautions don't need to be taken. These were calves we had purchased that the owners were planning on doing the banding method since we're in Michigan and they had heard about it from John Potter.
Our vet doesn't like the banding method. He has seen the bands slip and not work as they are intended, and he also believes that the pain is greater and of longer duration than is stated.
P.S. Photos of the new boy will have to wait a few days, I'm absolutely swamped with work tomorrow and Tuesday. I'd like them to be good ones too.
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Post by lakeportfarms on Dec 3, 2012 9:05:22 GMT -5
Gene, if you have to take off the horns on the cow, the horns are going to have to be scooped. You can have a cosmetic de-horning if you choose, but even without that the cavity will fill in and within 6 months and you'd never know it had been done. Wait until January, the coldest time of the year, and they seem to handle it better. Don't keep them in the barn where they can get warm and where it's high humidity, and make sure they only feed from ground level, to keep particles from going into the open cavity.
It's not for the faint of heart, and I feel really bad for them a couple of days, but it's the only way to truly get the entirety of the horn cells. Sawing it off won't do it.
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