Gorignak
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Post by Gorignak on May 27, 2013 13:06:10 GMT -5
This Holiday weekend, I had occasion to experience a series of events that highlighted a product and situation that is near-and-dear to many Dexter owners. First......I happened on a Craigslit Listing that I had to act on. It said, "Tamworth Feeder Pigs" $50. Good Pigs". Well, all you Dexter owners are quick, and correct, to advise anyone asking about Dexter Beef, "Just try it once"........You know what the result will be. The "Irish Grazer" pigs are the Dexters of the swine world.....lean, nimble, tall and long, and ask any Brit, ......the finest eating pig on the planet. Tamworths will wade through pasture eating like a Dexter. They are consumate foragers, and will root every rock and stump out of a field. Granted, one has to ring their noses lightly to escape a complete turnover of the soil. BUT, when new ground, and woods being converted to pasture are the fare, they are working, 12 hours a day, and making meat to boot. I have 80 acres of exactly that situation. I bought 3 sows and a pair of boars from two different litters. Google "Tamworth Images" and fall in love...... Second event was the ride over to get the pigs......Our County has not seen this much hay needing cut in 5 years. Three terrible years, and now a lush wet spring have teamed up to produce wall-to-wall, deep Fescue. The wind was blowing and the tall grass was a sea of green waves. It has been a bit too cool and damp to get the hay down and dry, and everyone has held off for a good dry stretch. Mile after mile of the ride was through 100 acre fields on either side of the road that were bursting with tall growth. In rapid succession, I was thinking of the price of 4x5 round bales dropping to under $25. and my grazing pigs and cattle feasting on my pastures which had become a lush green carpet with the dead timber sticking out of it. I got my pigs and headed back through the fortune in hay waiting to be cut. Thirdly, returning home, I pulled in the lane and passed the 5 acre field that our Dexters are in. There they were, in all this glorious green.....STUBBORNLY EATING THE RYE AND BERMUDA UNDER THE FENCE LINE AND ON THE PATCHES AND MARGINS WE HAD SEEDED THIS FALL AND EARLY SPRING. 4 ACRES OF FESCUE LOOKED LIKE THEY HAD NOT TOUCHED IT....THEY HAD NOT EVEN WALKED IN IT. The reality that I had pigeonholed and "whistled past the graveyard", instead of facing was a simple, unavoidable fact: ALL OF THE BEAUTIFUL TALL FESCUE WAS PAST THE SEED DOUGH STAGE........IT HAD LOST OVER 50% OF ITS' PROTEIN, AND 60% OF ITS DIGESTABILITY. At the stage that every blade of the grass I had seen was at, it would not even sustain a dry cow without supplementation. In no way will it grow a beef with any efficiency. Fescue can lose 50% of its' food value in less than a week !!! This is meant for all of you (me included) novices that are in regions where Fescue has become the dominant cool season grass. Read these and other links carefully. www.caes.uga.edu/commodities/fieldcrops/forages/documents/gc9304.pdfwww.ca.uky.edu/agc/pubs/agr/agr59/agr59.htmwww.cattletoday.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=55979aes.missouri.edu/fsrc/news/archives/nl07v15n2b.stmThat is just four off of the first page of a Google search........ Fescue Protein. There are dozens of links on fescue. All those beautiful green bales are going to have THE SAME OR LESS FOOD VALUE THAN BARLEY, OAT, OR WHEAT STRAW. Cattle avoid it....deer won't eat it. Judicious purchase of hay is essential. So, I got on my tractor with the brush hog and mowed all the tall fescue down. At least the newer growth will be higher in protein and TDN. And, the Bermuda underneath could get more sun while the ground was still damp.
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Post by ctownson on May 27, 2013 17:17:56 GMT -5
We have a similar situation here after a wet, cool spring. I have never seen so much hay in the fields. We cut a patch that was about 6 acres in size and got almost 600 bales of great hay. But, like you I am seeing a lot of fields that are past their "prime" now. One of the saving graces for some fields is a lot of red clover is also present with the fescue.
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Post by rezzfullacres on May 27, 2013 20:36:22 GMT -5
In most areas of the country it is very hard to harvest cool season grasses at thier prime, that is why they are called cool season grasses, they do best in the cool moist times not the hotter dry times required for making hay.....As far as not making hay because it is a little past prime, that is a very foolish notion, lower quality hay will feed cows much better than a snowball in the middle of the winter......There is much more to making good hay than any of those papers showed.....they did not account for undergrowth, they did not account for clover content, they did not account for stand diversity.....The papers are typical of "studies", they do not correlate with the real world.....BTW we will be mowing our fescue hay this week, I will bet the cows will eat it, they will come throught the winter just fine, that is the difference between farming and doing "studies".....
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Post by dexterfarm on May 28, 2013 13:30:54 GMT -5
don't discount over mature hay. If I were closer I would gladly come and bale your fescue. Just to help you get rid of it. ;D. My fescue feild got baled well past prime last year because my baler broke down and I could not find any one that could do it. still it looked better than a lot of hay I have bought in the past. My dexters went into winter nursing calves. While pregnant weaning the calves on their own and giving birth to healthy calves in the spring all while maintaining good condition on old fescue. It is going to be the same this year but for different reasons. To much rain to cut hay. Last weekend would have been best but we will bale when weather permits. I think a lot also depends on how it is baled. Here they cut hay leave it sit in the feild forever until it is all brown and then they bale it when they get to it. I cut and bale within 3 days if possible and it makes a lot better hay.
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Post by trdean on May 29, 2013 12:46:22 GMT -5
Yea..sometimes I think we over analyze the importance of "perfect" hay. I totally agree with rezz...around here the weather has not allowed for the perfect harvest of the early season grasses. I actually just put my cows into a field of fescue that was past its prime and the cows are loving it. They can survive quite well on less than ideal hay.
Gene...do you have good growth in your red river crabgrass yet? Also, have you bailed any and did the cows like it?
Edit to add...that I should have mentioned it is a mixed field with fescue, white clover and orchard grass.
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Gorignak
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Post by Gorignak on May 29, 2013 15:34:59 GMT -5
This has nothing to do with what we believe or want...save that for church. This has to do with cold hard facts. Cold as steel. So, we've heard from the "Flat Earth" section of the forum, ctownson excluded...Charles, I hope that the clover is abundant. I don't know what grade you teach....but if it is from 8th to U 201 level, there is a math exercise in this information . Have the kids develop a spreadsheet and find out the negative premium that is paid for OVER MATURE Fescue feeding. The following is not meant for the "Flat Earthers" it is meant for the newcomers and those trusting in hard data and the effort of most in the University system to try and offer us options and choices where they may be available. The "dadgum, it was good enough for grandpa', and it's good enough for me", crowd is reliably deaf to unsettling new facts. Cool season grasses are called that because they grow when it is cool...not because it is hard to harvest them at their prime. Most years WE....NW Arkansas.... have ample dry time in the "cool" season. This year has been the exception. Harvest has been dramatically delayed. The VOLUME of hay is incredible, and already there are $25. 4x5 bales of "good Fescue" and "good mixed grass". The latter can be read as "Fescue and various weeds". Here, we do not have ANY quality understory to our Fescue. The penalty for delaying harvest of Fescue is dramatic and extremely detrimental to a cow's health and well being. 9 days delay past the " early boot" stage drops the protein and the digestibility by over 50%. THE VOLUME OF HAY INCREASES, HOWEVER, ALMOST 65%. Therein lies the key to the lie. All my neighbors harvest for volume. The hay will keep cattle alive. The cattle will calve. BUT, the Body Condition Score (BCS) of the cattle will be much lower than cattle fed earlier harvested hay. The figures in some of the studies indicated are DRAMATIC.....150 lbs less gain......30% lower lactation and calf weaning weight......marked increase in calving problems and losses. I just rode out and did a BCS score of my nearest neighbors cattle ...150 head.... he has calves nursing on cows with a BCS of 3 and low 4. He has rolls, and rolls, and rolls, of Fescue left from last year. He fed them all they could eat.....but, he would not spend any money on protein augmentation. Range cubes, molasses lick tubs and liquid protein roll tubs are the best options. " Lower quality hay will feed cows much better than a snowball in the winter." Perhaps if you were a better "farmer", and were able to broaden your outlook, you would not be faced with such a terrifying limitation of choices. Really, is it feed them hay with less protein than oat straw, or a snowball What if it doesn't snow Do they really eat snowballs. Do you put something on the snowballs, or can you shape it to look like something they will eat, and fool them ? The studies did not include "understory grasses" because they were studies of Fescue. Though one study did mention that addition of clover helped mitigate the deleterious effects of the endophyte toxicity in the Fescue. No, the difference between "studies" and "farming" is that in studies the dead calves are weighed and counted. In "farming" they are buried, hidden and forgotten. Learning is more often about what we are not allowed to forget, rather than what we are forced to learn new. "Very well said" .........Well, Delmar (genebo)...., your, "I'm with you guys", got the biggest laugh in "Oh, Brother Where Art Thou". But I doubt it was for its display of advanced cognition.......more like the laugh at an Elvis record skipping on "Hunka.....(burnin' love) .....Hunka....Hunka......Hunka.....Hunka......Roll 'em in the aisles. VERY well said. Mike.....your success can't be quantified....you are asking me to believe a result with no facts offered on the inputs. If you did enjoy success with the lowest possible hay quality, there easily could have been unnoticed additional inputs. Kind of like the horse that could count for his owner, until ALL the inputs were exposed, and then the horse was no smarter than any other horse.....and could only read and write, but not count. That set of retorts to the Flat Earthers was painful, tedious, and probably uncalled for, except to make a point and drive it home to those out there who have "paid" for their "education" in one way or another and would like to hear about how to better themselves and their little cows. The largest and richest cattle farmer in our county has about 4000 acres of better-than-average valley land. He owns the local feed mill, and the hardware store. He has bought up hundreds of bankrupt poultry operations and raises turkeys, which he processes in his own facility and sells to various institutions and prison systems.....clever man who has built up a fortune over a 5 decade run of good choices. He bales all of his turkey litter fertilized Fescue at maximum maturity and volume and sells it off the lot of his cattle auction barn to all the locals. Good equipment means he has the greenest hay in the county. HE FEEDS HIS 2500 HEAD OF CATTLE COASTAL BERMUDA THAT HE TRUCKS IN. DUH.....get it, he knows the score. If you don't have Fescue....don't plant it. If you are stuck with Fescue pastures, overseed them with legumes. Lime....Lime.....Lime.... it is the best path to sweeter pastures. If you can plow and replant an acre a year, you are headed for success. Clovers, vetch, orchard grass, timothy, bluestem, brome. Wide scale Fescue planting was started in the 40's. It was not until the 80's that the endophyte toxicity was understood. But, farmers understood the poor calving, hoof problems, coat problems, tail loss, low weight gain long before that...... it is the talk around every wood stove in every feed store in our area in the spring. IF YOU HAVE TO FEED FESCUE, PROTEIN LICK TUBS ARE THE CHEAPEST INSURANCE AGAINST DEFICIENCIES. Talk to your Ag extension agent or county agent. If you can harvest Fescue in the "early boot" stage.....before it seeds.....IT IS EQUAL TO ORCHARD GRASS IN PROTEIN AND DIGESTIBILITY.....14% PROTEIN IN SOME CASES. The volume of hay will be much less. Your cattle will be healthier. Don't whistle past the graveyard like some here would encourage.....do your homework. EVERY major agri-university warns and counsels against relying on Fescue, and discourages any new planting in favor of better grasses. Hey....don't listen to me.....I'm an idiot, I planted it !!! But....it's better than a poke in the eye with a sharp stick. BTW....When "rezz" was 5 years old, I made $50K profit in 6 months on a feeder pig operation, when meat went from $.19/lb to $.55/lb. Bought my first farm with that. I'll admit to knowing little about cattle.....I know farming....or, should I say, I know successful farming. Any spelling, syntax, or punctuation errors due to complete exhaustion. Note, and I will correct.
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Post by rezzfullacres on May 29, 2013 17:40:43 GMT -5
Mike; If you are not farmer enough to know you better make hay when you have the chance because you may not get another chance there is little hope for you...As far as the rest of your post really uncalled for and unnecesary, perhaps you should read what was written and rethink you reply. BTW you may be older but you do not have NEARLY the experience we have .....
RFA
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Gorignak
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Post by Gorignak on May 29, 2013 18:40:46 GMT -5
Obscurantism is a term used to define the attempt by the powers -that- be in Medieval times to restrict knowledge that was transmitted to the "general public".
You go right ahead, and I will be paying close attention, with whatever you believe.
The "better than a snowball" is one phrase that does not belong in intelligent discussion. And, you and your cohorts were called on it.
I will promise EVERY reader of my posts an absolute unwavering focus on the truth and what appears to me to be everyone's best interest. I will always try and make it fun.
I will not bend under the pressure of social, cultural, or economic "obscurantism" or "obfuscation". Don't be a fool, and I won't do a fools dance around you.You and yours have my sincere admission that I did not phrase my reply in the most conciliatory and congenial language....you do not have an apology. Behave, and I will behave.
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Post by rezzfullacres on May 29, 2013 20:55:21 GMT -5
Since you are too thick headed and immature to realize the foolishness you post I will enlighten you. In your zest and zeal to prove you and your "studies" are correct and the only way to farm, you have completely disregarded another posters first hand experience, you completely disregard the fact that poor hay IS better than a snowball and since you apparently have no common sense I will further explain it to you so that maybe you can understand a little bit better.......Having lived and farmed through an extended period of drought (late 90's) and having to have hay trucked in from Ok. to keep the dairy running, I would rather have a poorer quality fesucue hay than nothing, which is what a snowball is(everyone else could figure that out)......I can add supplements to poorer hay, I can not add to no hay.....As far as straw having more protein, check your facts, ONLY if the combine leaves plenty of grain behind.......We have feed ammoniated straw, google it, you are good at that. I did not expect you to apologize, that would be beneath the status you think you have obtained........Good luck to your cattle, they will need it.......
RFA
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Post by rezzfullacres on May 29, 2013 21:05:45 GMT -5
No, the difference between "studies" and "farming" is that in studies the dead calves are weighed and counted. In "farming" they are buried, hidden and forgotten. Learning is more often about what we are not allowed to forget, rather than what we are forced to learn new. /quote] Once again you are so wrong it is almost comical......In farming the profit IS the calves, do you not realize that? Are you that misinformed? Without calves there is no product to sell, either the live animal or the finished product...........Do you not realize that keeping the herd healthy and robust is job 1 of any beef farmer? Farming is real, it is hard, it is tedious, it is gratifying when you do it right!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!Academics are the complete oppisite, the look at 1 item in a vacuum, not the entire process, there is a big big big BIG difference.........I am a farmer, not an academic, I am proud of it. We depend on the land and we in turn do our very best to care for and improve it every year....That is what a farmer does........ RFA
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Post by Deleted on May 29, 2013 22:46:16 GMT -5
Our fuss-bucket-bellies-on-legs wont eat fescue or white clover hay. It was in a mixture of. Yet the agisting moos not only ate it in a heart beat but went looking for more. Maybe baling up our native grass paddocks would slow our "sumos" down a little................then again probably not
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Post by Olga on May 30, 2013 0:50:29 GMT -5
First off, lets lower our tone on this discussion.
Second, the original post gave advice on hay selection that would be better quality and better value. No one suggested that if good hay wasn't available, then you shouldn't buy bad hay.
Finally, some personal experiences.
Some of you, probably most of you, live outside of Arkansas as such, and this area of Arkansas in particular. Oh, the soil we have! Or should I say, what soil? It is utterly depleted of nutrients and usually very acidic. How many of you grow moss and likens on your lawn? So when I say that I've seen some bad hay around here - it's not like the bad hay from Southern Missouri or Western Oklahoma. One year, my horses thought that the mixed grass/alfalfa hay from MO that had about 30% weeds baled in was candy! It's like Mike said, here there is a field after field of overgrown mixed grass/fescue that is nothing but stems and weeds. The 80 bales that we bought last year from a "professional farmer" (an older gentleman who's family had the farm for generations and that he'd been farming all his life): it was the 1st cutting, it looked good - tight net-wrapped bales, it smelled ok, had some green color to it. I was happy. I! I bet our cows and horses wished they could've made me eat it! For the first time I've seen balls of cud that the cows spat out. The horses had scours all winter. Judging by the condition and appearance of the animals, the hay had low protein value and high mold and dust content. And weeds, of course. I supplemented, of course, and hoped we'd make it till Spring. Thankfully, the winter was short and we now have 30 bales of junk hay to get rid of.
About 5 years ago we became the laughing stock of our farmer-friends. They were buying hay for $15 per bale. We paid $30 per bale of bermuda from the only professional hay producer in our area. It was the first winter that all of our animals stayed shiny and fat, including the old horse. And no supplements. None.
This year most of my horse friends have decided to forget local hay wannabe-producers and pitch in for out-of-state hay from professional hay producers. Hay that's been sprayed for weeds, fertilized between cuttings, harvested at its peak, properly dried before being baled, and then analyzed for protein and TDN.
And as to calves being the profit. I know exactly what Mike meant by it. Poor hay lowers overall health of the animal, thus: less milk, lower weaning weight, longer rebreeding period, higher chance of pregnancy terminations or compications, weaker calves at birth, higher calf mortality. As Dexter producers we can't really attest to these statistics - our cattle are hardier, better cared for (we wouldn't let them starve, would we?), and usually too few (per breeder) in numbers to draw conclusions of any statistical value. But look at most bigger herds- and you'll see unhealthy cattle that eke out a living on meager pasture and meager hay. Come to Arkansas and see the new meaning of "overgrazed"...
Midnight ramblings from Olga... Just too tired to give a coherent ending. How's this: given the choice, don't hesitate to pay more for better hay; if you bale your own, harvest it at the proper time for your type of grass. Good luck!
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Post by dexterfarm on May 30, 2013 12:54:50 GMT -5
Gorignak, that was quite uncalled for. If you are not open to discussion or comments. then maybe you need to start adding a disclaimer stating not reply unless it is to agree with you.
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Gorignak
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Post by Gorignak on May 30, 2013 14:30:06 GMT -5
dexterfarm.....you can say anything that catches your fancy. I don't care. But expect to be fact checked if you, or anyone else attempts to pass "opinion" off as fact.
Fact.....9 days past the early boot stage, fescue hay has lost 50% of its protein and over 50% of its digestibility. Subtract a 2% protein loss in curing, and much of the hay will be at or below 7% protein.
Fact......7% protein hay, without supplementation, is detrimental to cattle's health and reproduction.
Opinion.....Overmature fescue hay, that is 7% protein, is just fine for cattle. They will grow and reproduce quite well on it.
Take a week and look at the # of "guests" that are present looking at this forum at any one time. These are folks who are looking for information. These are students of Dexter Cattle.....Note your opinion as such, so they can make decisions based on facts.
I invite any comments based on fact.....the Flat Earthers launched a robust, erroneous opinion romp through my information.....and I was there to run them out. Re-read Olga's commentary. Why is it that she understood what was said and you didn't. And, you are right...I don't have time for this nonsense, and will act accordingly in the future. Your response received quite a measured reply. If you are not up to that response, you may be the one in need of a personal reevaluation. Olga requested that this be toned down, so I won't comment further here, there are too many important topics to cover. If you all want to do a half dozen more posts....make them good and derisive, and you can bury the valuable information in the middle of the post. That should satisfy all involved.
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Post by marion on May 30, 2013 14:43:24 GMT -5
In most areas of the country it is very hard to harvest cool season grasses at thier prime, that is why they are called cool season grasses, they do best in the cool moist times not the hotter dry times required for making hay.....As far as not making hay because it is a little past prime, that is a very foolish notion, lower quality hay will feed cows much better than a snowball in the middle of the winter......There is much more to making good hay than any of those papers showed.....they did not account for undergrowth, they did not account for clover content, they did not account for stand diversity.....The papers are typical of "studies", they do not correlate with the real world.....BTW we will be mowing our fescue hay this week, I will bet the cows will eat it, they will come throught the winter just fine, that is the difference between farming and doing "studies"..... I totally agree with this post.marion
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