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Post by jdcarnathan on Oct 16, 2013 3:50:08 GMT -5
Mike, I'm so sorry for your loss. She sure was a beauty. It is like losing a family member, with the time. Care and love you invest into these animals. We will be praying for you, take care up there. Hopefully it isn't getting too cold, too warmth for yall. I would also be interested in a learning. Jdcarnathan@gmail.com
Sailor
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dexterlady
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Wife, mother of two daughters and five grand children
Posts: 647
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Post by dexterlady on Oct 18, 2013 20:10:43 GMT -5
Mike , will you include me on your list for this info...I am so sorry for your loss, I know it had to be hard to deal with...Thanks a lot Donna
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dexterlady
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Posts: 647
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Post by dexterlady on Oct 18, 2013 22:59:44 GMT -5
Hello again Mike, I already wrote a message but I don't know where it went...Anyway, I am also very very sorry for your loss...It is so hard to lose a beautiful calf and a heifer at that...I just saw Carole just asked what I wanted to ask....Is this condition anything like Joint Ill?....I had two bottle calves I bought(one heifer and one bull calf),and they both had Navel Ill....They were two months old when I bought them and they didn't eat very well...They also laid down a lot...I didn't think anything was wrong, I thought maybe it was just that they were new here...So I struggled for a few days and finally took them to the vet..The vet looked at their navels and knew right away they had Navel Ill....There was no drainage coming out of the navel until the vet lanced them....Then lots of puss came out...So the vet flushed them with betadine or iodine and then put some antibiotics in them...He told me not to expect them to live as their joints were already swollen and the damage has been done and they would never recover...(This is the short story).So after thinking of our calves, I just wonder if this was the same as what you had with your Sassy...By the way, I also have a little heifer named "Sassy"....Her reg. name is " COR Max's Sassafrass...So would you please send me all the info also so I can read it...Again, I am so sorry for your loss...Sincerely....Donna
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Gorignak
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Post by Gorignak on Oct 19, 2013 7:45:47 GMT -5
Same condition as "joint ill" ....same result. Keep in mind that there are MANY pathogens...bacteria, mycoplasmas, and fungi that can go septic. Both old cattle (fetlocks most often) and the very young ( 12 - 24 hours noted often in research papers) can be affected.
You also experienced the horrible inevitability that follows infection. Unlike pneumonia or scours, THERE IS NO INDICATORS BUT TEMPERATURE AND GENERAL APPEARANCE that indicates just how much damage is going on inside. It is over by the time you know what is going on.
I am sending you PM on here) the text and link to the pictures that we took . Guaranteed, you will be a different person after seeing them. I am still in regroup/recovery mode. We are astounded at the entire event.Get back to me after you view the information with your thoughts.
Sassafras is our favorite lumber. I paneled the entire downstairs of the first house we sawed out and built with it.
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Gorignak
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Post by Gorignak on Oct 19, 2013 7:49:10 GMT -5
Dexterlady, I found your email on your profile...it is coming to your personal inbox
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dexterlady
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Wife, mother of two daughters and five grand children
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Post by dexterlady on Oct 20, 2013 12:10:06 GMT -5
Thanks Mike, looking forward to receiving it...I'd like to see the room you did with the Sasafrass!....Dexterlady ( Donna )
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Gorignak
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Post by Gorignak on Oct 20, 2013 12:54:25 GMT -5
Tried that email address but it bounced back. I put the info and links on a PM in your messages.
That house was lightning struck and burned in 1986...5000 sq ft timber frame that was solid wood from top to bottom. We are two houses past that one now. The massive timber die off around here (from the drought) has me itching to build one more before I can't anymore. I spent all Thursday with a team of Forestry officials. We re-certified our Tree Farm and mulled over the disaster that we all are contending with. I have a lot of timber to cut.
On the bright side...having to turn my driest 80 acres into semi-wooded pasture.....well, that led to the Dexters. The sight of the Dexters in the grass with the scattering of white oaks had the Foresters swooning. "I don't think I've been on a prettier place", was the most heard statement.
Since Halloween is approaching, I will revisit a picture....enjoy.
And, the Foresters loved the scattered White Oaks and the little cows
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dexterlady
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Wife, mother of two daughters and five grand children
Posts: 647
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Post by dexterlady on Oct 20, 2013 16:06:31 GMT -5
Mike, I did get your post on my PM as you know and so I just changed my email addy...I didn't realize it was so out of date...I did not go as far as you did with my calves...After I found out it was hopeless I took them to the auction..They were used for dog meat...Anyway, I put Iodine on all my new calves navels now , even though the momma licks it off...At least it may prevent it from happening here...My two had it when I bought them....When I told the owner about it , she said she would replace them and never did!...But they were not Dexters, they were crossbred beef and dairy cattle...My vet said joint-ill is not that prevalent, usually the farm is very contaminated with manure etc..Anyway, I hope I never have to go through what you did... You know I wonder if spraying your pens down with bleach ( diluted of course) would help any to kill bacteria and fungi?...Just a thought...I have small pens ( about 20x40 & 20x80 ), so I know I could spray mine down real easy...Anyway, which there was some cure for this , S.A. is just terrible.... Well, if you get anymore info, I'd like to read it....Thanks for sending me all your info and pictures...Being a nurse for 30 years, it didn't gross me out, but I'm sure others were probably horrified...I looked at it as science...Thanks a lot..Dexterlady
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dexterlady
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Post by dexterlady on Oct 20, 2013 16:07:41 GMT -5
Oh and Mike , That pictures is of the guy in the field is spooky!!!!AAAWWWWW!
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Gorignak
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Post by Gorignak on Oct 21, 2013 8:15:37 GMT -5
There is absolutely no way to completely disinfect a livestock facility. We do high pressure wash most every surface 2 - 3X a year. Bowls, watering troughs and the like get a monthly pressure wash. Our stalls have 12" of hardwood chips and a deep layer of straw bedding that is kept meticulously clean. When the vet came for the bulldog calf he was stopped short by how clean our barn is...."Wow, nice and clean." " I don't usually get to work in these conditions", was his comment. Years ago, when we started, we would use an antimicrobial wash or rinse, but have evolved away from that. I firmly believe that the building of an internal resistance is paramount.
This really addresses what I see as the problem that we all face....... To Clean or Inoculate...... And, by Inoculate, I don't mean a vaccine. I am referring to the daily contact with pathogens that "could" kill us, and developing a resistance. I would rather have a little of all of the bacteria present, and try to clean enough to prevent an overwhelming source from developing.
Don't think I haven't done some soul searching and personal criticism of the events surrounding the loss of the calf. There was not a single factor that we could find that was a "gotcha" moment. There was no reason for her to become infected with anything, much less succumb to it. She got gallons of Colostrum, and was nursing on the cow at the onset. The real answer is lost forever. I can make one definitive, accurate evaluation.......Her antibody resources were challenged and overwhelmed. Was it a "superbug" or was it Staph or Strep that all of us can culture from under our fingernails ??. The E-coli in our gut will kill us in our bloodstream....what an incredible system.
We CAN address the treatment. I am, personally, going to acquire a couple of the "next level" antibiotics and keep them on hand. I am going to treat any marginal symptom much more aggressively. But then, I feel I am adding to the antibiotic resistance problem !! Our vets limited sense of urgency in the critical early stages...104.6 F temperature but no other symptoms.... was fatal.
A vet, saying that navel infection and "joint ill" are not that common, or a product of extremely dirty conditions, might be inviting a complacence that is dangerous. I have found it to be mentioned often in forums and cattle welfare sites. One of the forum posters here has noted that a simple washing and disinfecting of the naval is not enough. Antibiotics have to be injected directly into the abscessed naval.
I did not want to trash the Dexter Forum with gruesome pictures of what could have just as easily been a Jersey. However, with all the small stockowners that frequent the posts, I think that an accurate description of an always fatal malady is in order. IF AN INFECTION PROGRESSES TO AN ANIMAL'S JOINTS....IT IS INVARIABLY FATAL UNLESS A KEEN SENSE, GOOD TIMING, AND PROPER CARE ARE IN PLACE. The time to learn about this one is BEFORE you have a $1K calf fully involved. The window to catch a case of "joint ill" or septic arthritis is about 12 - 24 hours wide.
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Post by carragheendexters on Oct 21, 2013 15:25:29 GMT -5
Hi, the best thing for reducing the burden of bacteria in your pens is sunshine. The UV light in sunshine is antibacterial, so just rake your yard over to remove excess debris and let the sun do it's job. If you are really keen, just sprinkle a little lime around and rake it in. It will freshen up the soil and clean it up as well. You don't want to sterilise your pens and soil, bacteria (at least the right bacteria) are beneficial for soil. If you go all out spraying around anti-bacterials you will kill off all of the beneficial bacteria as well as the unwanted ones, giving the unwanted ones a chance of getting a foothold and dominating the population. regards louise
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Post by carragheendexters on Oct 21, 2013 15:37:49 GMT -5
Hi again, the thing is Mike and Dexterlady, through the navel is only one way of getting joint ill. What did cattle do before people came along with iodine to sterilise their navels, or popping an umbilical peg on? Calving in a nice fresh, grassy paddock is all you need. Over here ours often calve in dirt by their choice, they find a patch of dust to have their babies in. The mother is only going to lick the cord anyway, and then it's covered in mouth bacterial flora. This is where colostrum comes in, gives the calf some immunity to these bacteria.
Scours in a calf or lamb can end up with joint ill. We have a lamb right now that we are treating for joint ill, she is doing really well, the joint swelling is down, no lameness, and running about. She has now had 4 doses of oxytet LA and it did it's job well. With scours, the gut becomes permeable to the bacteria because of the scours and the bacteria crosses over into the bloodstream, and on into a joint. Same with pneumonia, a calf with pneumonia, or scours/pneumonia complex can end up with joint ill the same way. A calf with a temp and no other symptoms, I wouldn't treat, and I don't think that many vets would advise it as well. Actually we probably wouldn't even know it had a temp. We hardly ever use a thermometer, only if an animal is visually sick, you can over react to a temp. Sometimes having a temp is just a transient thing, and will settle of it's own accord. regards Louise
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dexterlady
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Post by dexterlady on Oct 21, 2013 22:39:45 GMT -5
Thanks Louise...You are right about over cleaning pens etc...I know there is good bacteria and bad...And you are right, sunshine is really the best antibacterial...One thing I do disagree with is the thermometer...If you wait until the calf is visually sick, it would probably be too late to catch joint ill, if the calf has it...Another thing, yes , the mother licks the navel very well when it has iodine on it , that is why I keep the calf away from her for about 15-20 minutes so hopefully the iodine gets in there far enough so she can't lick it all off...Iy makes me feel better anyway...May not do anything for the calf..LOL One more thing Louise...How did you know your lamb had joint-ill?...Do you think it will have permanent damage to the joints?...Anyway, thanks for your input.....Dexterlady
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Gorignak
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Post by Gorignak on Oct 22, 2013 6:35:00 GMT -5
Thanks Louise and Donna....you are really looking at the heart of the question. First...hydrated lime has been our best friend for 40 years, except when a goat broke into a bag and ate some....blistered its lips but it recovered. We use it on all the barnyar5d surfaces weekly and in the stalls bi-weekly.
I am going to agree with both of your points of disagreement.
The vet took a "wait and watch" stance with the 104.6F temp.He said exactly what was noted...."Calves can be perfectly fine and have a 104 temp in hot weather". THE CALF HAD NO OTHER SYMPTOMS OTHER THAN "ILL LETHARGY". You know the "droop", the slow, listless attempt at nursing and an indifference to anything exciting.
I treated instantly with LA 300. 10 CC divided in 2 spots SQ. The temperature would not budge. For the three days of effectiveness of the LA 300, nothing changed. MAYBE she perked up a little. We were drenching her with cow's milk and electrolytes by then. She did not lose any ground physically.
The LA 300, from the vantage point of "now vs then"....seems to have had zero effect.DID IT WORK ??.... We will never really know. Did it delay the onset of the severe swelling and involvement of the joint ?? It MAY have. We discontinued it on day 4. The vet counseled to wait and see. If it did work..IT DID NOT BUDGE THE TEMPERATURE. The calf continued with a 104.6 F temp as if nothing had been done.
At this point.....covering the first 6-7 days, it seems all was lost. Uncontrollably and irrevocably lost. When the leg swelled on day 7, there was nearly a cup of congealed pus in it. It never went down, and I can only assume that all the other joints were fully involved.
Well....you know the timeline. There was not one single insult that we can focus on...no scours, no cuts or abrasions, no limping or tenderness. We handled the calf and her mom 2X daily. I will never be able to pinpoint the source of the infection.
We keep a digital thermometer on hand. I have to admit that I would deal with this event differently, armed with what I know now.
Was something we "did" the cause of it or make it worse....I think not
Could we have "prevented" it.....I think not
Could we have effected a "cure" and saved the calf.....again, I think not, knowing what I know now.
Home schooling the kids, we offered a conundrum for them to ponder. If Bill Clinton had mobilized efforts, and supported a broader involvement in Rwanda, would the world have thought that one ethnic group could massacre 8000,000 of another with machetes Probably not. It had to happen to be comprehended.
I look at this event in the same light. What I am trying to do here is arm everyone else with the little hints that were there at the start. The stars did not come together for us. I hope this never happens to any of you.
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zephyrhillsusan
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Caught Dexteritis in Dec. 2009. Member of this forum since Oct. 2013.
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Post by zephyrhillsusan on Nov 1, 2013 14:34:09 GMT -5
Hi, Mike. I'm so very sorry for the loss of your beautiful Sassy. It's so heartbreaking, especially when you've done all you can to save her. Please accept my heartfelt sympathy! And when you get the information together, I would like to have it, too. My email is SusanLea2@aol.com Hopefully none of us will ever see this, but it can't hurt to be prepared! Thank you for being willing to share what you've learned and so many of your other experiences. I've been "lurking" here a while and have appreciated your input.
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