Linebreeding three colours two sizes

[Deleted]

Hello

We have been reading with some vigor now re linebreeding programs. We have bought books for both paternal and maternal lines and so on.

These programs are based on a breed of single colour and height so I have been wondering if there are any Dexter breeders following similar programs, or a hybrid with their Dexters taking into account the three colours and both non-dwarfs and dwarfs.

My whiteboard plan is telling me thank goodness for 100 acres.
Cheers Donna

[zephyrhillsusan]

CALPC!

[Deleted]

Jan 13, 2014 19:00:22 GMT -5 zephyrhillsusan said:

CALPC!

Ok so I'm totally out of touch . What does CALPC stand for

[rhonda]

cows are like potato chips

[zephyrhillsusan]

Yep--You can't have just one! Or you could say DALPC! I got that off the Keeping a Family Cow board. At least we're collecting Dexters--not Holsteins!

[jamboru]

Must be an Americanism, or I must be dumb. I still don't get it.
F

Edited to say we posted together. OK, got it. I like potato chips also.

[lakeportfarms]

In the U.S. there is a large company that manufactures "Lays" potato chips, for a long time, and maybe they still run it, there was a commercial that you "can't eat just one Lay's".

Yes, we started with 4, now just a few short of 100, about 3/4 of them Dexters and 1/4 Highlands.
I wanted more Highlands a while back, and Sheril wanted Dexters. Until I told her Highlands come in 7 colors. Yes, we have all 7 colors now.

[Deleted]

Rhonda *LOL* oh I got it, and yep it is sooooooo true.

Genebo, that is what has my whiteboard full. We ,don't want to loose the colour and size traits but yes are stuck in the BD1 and colour aspects.

I have theorised on offspring for 4 generations but find I am constantly making adjustments especially in lines C & D to retain the heterozygous BD1 and colour news as well as the dun ability while trying to ensure these "traits" are not lost while we work on conformation.

That's why I think even 100 acres insisted going to cut it for us

The overview is keep the bullcalf who is closest to the template and place over his half sisters producing the next line........but what if said bullcalf is not a dun or red carrier?
What if bullcalf does not have BD1? What if said half sisters are not BD1 carriers?

Our B line is a small number and luckily we have a BD1 bullcalf, dun and red carrier for four half sisters who just happened to be all non-dwarfs but of only one is a dun carrier, and only one is a red carrier.

But to ensure these two traits are maintained in the next generation, we either luck it and produce a dun calf and a red calf first up with some having BD1 to move onto the next line..............or we move on to the next line with what we have as well as send B bullcalf back over sisters and hope mother nature is kind for dun, red and BD1.

And we all know mother nature plays games...............so the numbers has the potiential to grow considerably...............Which I was hoping someone had the magic answer for my calculations.

And we don't want that many Dexters as we won't have the time for the personal touches.

Sounds like it is going to be a longer process than I originally anticipated - oh well, we'll still have fun in our travels along this road we have chosen

Cheers Donna

[cddexter]

Quick answer:

Too many alleles in one basket. Your program won't work. What you propose is pretty similar to early Dexter owners trying to breed nothing but living dwarfs: the genes won't let you.

Easiest to breed for colour first; that will take you about 10 years with heavy culling. Then you can overlay dwarfism, if you still think it's important. No matter what you do, you'll still alternate between black, dun and red, depending on the breeding choices you make, as the colours are mutually exclusive once you breed two animals together.

Familiarize yourself with the use of Punnett squares. From this you will see you have set yourself an impossible task.

Your best bet is to read over John Potter's colour charts on the ADCA genetics site. Even better is to contact John direct. He's the only one of all of us with the scientific qualifications AND experience to accurately advise you. You might want to also read Dr. Schmutz/John Potter's poster on the genetics of brown. Of less importance but interesting is How Now, Dun Cow, if you can find it. I wrote it for the 2002 AU Dex Congress, to present Dr. Schmutz and John Potter's findings.

cheers, c

[dexterfarm]

I will be doing this times 2. I am planning on running 2 seperate closed herds. One that is very heavy in woodmagic and one that predates woodmagic with no woodmagic in it. both I feel are important and unique that is why they will be kept seperate.
The one with no woodmagic will be easyer. They are only black and no chondro that I know of.
With my heavily woodmagic heard my bull is 90% woodmagic is black and carries dun. I do not have any red. My future bull for that herd will most likly come from one of his daughters who is already bread back to him. I am still looking for the right legacy chondro cow to ad there are only a few that I know of. The adition of a chondro cow will likly be added to the herd that has no woodmagic because the woodmagic side already has some shorter ones and I dont want an extreem shorty by combining the 2.

[lakeportfarms]

Take it from personal experience it can sometimes be pretty time consuming to run more than two or three herds at a time, especially in the winter months.  We have our different Dexter sub herds in addition to our Highland herd(s).  Multiply hay feeders x ?, waterers x ?, if you're managing pastures multiply that by ?, and then you have the young heifers, etc. with their own areas.

I'd say the easiest way is to plan on a good secure area for each of your bulls, and rotate your cows in and out of those areas.  Once they're confirmed bred you can run all the cows together.  You do risk a cow not calving back right away if she slips it at 3 months or so for whatever reason and you don't realize it for a bit.  If you have more property it is a bit easier.

And when you do this genotyping all of your calves takes on greater importance.  We're running our bull Mike (this is his last breeding year I'm afraid) along with a young yearling bull.  From what I've seen he's been able to fend off the younger bull and keep up with the cows, but in the event he doesn't we'll have the genotype to verify who the sire is.  But when you're running multiple bulls there is always the chance that one will get over a fence.  And it's important to be able to remove all doubt to not only for yourself but for your purchasers of breeding stock.

[Deleted]

Cddexter, thank you for those references, I will contact John and also get the books.
The plan has been in my every waking moment, working on scenarios and the what ifs. I don't think it will be impossible, but we will have to have very accurate breeding information and it won't be as easy or as quick to reach the goal as those can with a single height and single coloured breed. But we are going for it.

We feel we have bought our foundation stock wisely; they are half brothers and half sisters, daughters, mothers and sons. Only two females we have marked as out crosses from the relationships of the majority.

We have tested for everything, colour included and we know who is carrying what, plus we have a nice mix of BD1 carriers such as one half sister is a BD1 carrier and the other is not and so on.
We currently have 7 duns of which only three do not carry red.
Three reds, one is homozygenous dun carrier.
15 blacks of which only four does not carry red or dun. The others carry one or both colour.
And we have 6 dwarfs within each of the colours who carry one or two of the other colours. We have been light on with dwarfs in the calves producing only 1 female and two males in two breeding seasons.
We also have a dun bull and a red with the others being black but carrying combinations of the colours.
We also own each bull's mother.

Dexter farm, yes I'm wondering if this may be necessary in the sense of breeding records. As I said above, our foundation stock are already related to key animals who we have been able to see pics of. Maybe the running of three or four groups from the central bloodline is the only option to try and maintain the colour variance and dwarfs through the process?

Actually this is what my whiteboard is telling me - which also means extra breeding stock kept for each generation line.
I was thinking I may have calculated the long way around but now I'm not so sure after reading the replies to this thread.

Lakeportfarms, I agree with the multiple herds and the extra tme and feeding requirements. We have nearly completed the fencing and paddock dams within the property to accommodate 6 bulls, bachelor paddock and 'Nun' paddock for the young heifers.
The planning for this alone was tedious to ensure we could run together the bulls and in-calf girls for the majority of the year and they could freely roam from one side of the property to the other while allowing a good size area for the heifers for their fair share of variety in the native grasses ( we don't do pastures).

And yes, ensuring said cow is in calf to said bull BEFORE turning them loose into one herd has been something we have watched for this season as we used only two bulls this season to bring them into the A generation. The boys did us proud, not missing a cycle but the 'slipping' aspect is something we will just have to watch out for.

Thanks for pointing this out

Cheers Donna

[carragheendexters]

Jan 15, 2014 16:16:45 GMT -5 @donlindexters said:

fair share of variety in the native grasses ( we don't do pastures).



Cheers Donna

Hi Donna,

Ummm, so what are native grasses? Aren't they pasture? Perhaps what you mean is you don't do "introduced species pasture".

You are correct, probably introduced species wouldn't do very well in your area as they require better soils.

I have a friend who used to have a 100acre property near where you live, with similar soil, location , pasture etc, and for sustainability of her pasture she worked on 1 Dexter cow per 10 acres. They still had to supplementary feed during feed gaps.

Perhaps you may wish to get some advice from your local DPI agronomist or beef cattle officer on how best to manage your pasture, they can come out and give some help on how best to graze your land, and best of all it is free advice.

Otherwise you may consider doing a Prograze course, which will give you some help in managing your land and how to keep the native grasses persisting.

Native pastures require good breaks from grazing so that they can reseed and regenerate, otherwise they do not have good sustainability and persistence.

It sounds like you are going to end up with quite a few Dexters on your land with what you are planning, so some pasture management now may save you a lot of supplementary feeding later. Your pasture may wear out before your whiteboard does, and within a few years you will end up with 100 acres of weeds and dirt.

regards Louise

[cddexter]

Donna;

Gene's suggestion is that you keep all three colours separated. That way you can predict the colour outcome of all calvings. But you'll be running three distinct herds, based on colour, plus having to worry about replacement bulls x 6: a dwarf for the nons, and visa versa for each colour group..

From your post it sounds like you are combining the colour genes and are trying to figure out a guaranteed outcome from the combinations. If this is the case, you won't be able to get the guarantees you seem to be after.

Take the time to do some Punnett squares, and it will become obvious very quickly that you'll have various combinations that only turn up on a statistical basis, rather than a predictable one.

If you are going to contact John, please remember he's been extremely ill for several years, and twice we thought he was on his way out. He's still quite frail, so go easy on him

Good luck with your program. cheers, c.

[Deleted]

Hi Genebo. Yep it is a huge task but hopefully our health and longevity will allow us to get close to the goal we have set ourselves and thank goodness both kids, well young adults are each fascinated in what we are doing especially our daughter who sits with us talking about the what's and why, questioning our decisions to gain understandings, and it is also a double check for us which gives us confidence in the each breeding decision we are doing/white boarding.

Our son loves the land management aspect and seems to have an eye for those Dexters that my quality-controlling OH has. Without them both I would be lost as I would keep and work with more of the Dexters than Should be in the breeding program.

Which is a really satisfying feeling to know the property and the Dexters will continue on long after we are not here

And I would be happy to keep you updated with where and how we are heading. It will also allow for other heads to question and double check our path along the way .


Hi Louise
As I type this I am touching wood: our property, so far is doing quite well considering the weather and the recent heat wave.
We are thinking we may have to begin to supplement feed soon but the Dexters are in great condition still, even those mums with 4 month old calves aren't showing pointed pins or their last rib. And they are not rushing for their treats which wouldn't come close to filling them up either.
So far, so good.......but it is starting to dry a little.

Coastal showers and being at the end of a natural water course has helped immensely of course.

OH had forward planned. He figured we spend the $$$ up front and irrigate instead of having to buy in feed.
We know we will head into another long-term drought period soon.

We bought at the end of the drought period, watched for 2 years how this affected the property and then we saw the breaking of the drought, where water came from and where it could lay for extended periods.
Before fencing began we installed about 4000 m of 2 in irrigation piping on top of the slopes of the property with each 'branch' starting at a very deep and well planned dam dug by us.
Each irrigation line supports screw in poles with attached full circled sprinkler heads. We don't have many of these as the speinkler heads are a little expensive but we are working on increasing their numbers as we go along.
The run-off from each branch runs into another dam and so on.

Around the new dams and along the irrigation tracks we have over sown with native grass seeds of both winter and summer varieties.

Yesterday I turned on one of the water pumps and set a branch of irrigation going. This morning I have another going.
We do have a little rain scheduled for the end, going into next week which will help.

The beauty of native grass is it doesn't take much water to get it growing. Yes, native grasses and not introduced pastures is a better word for it.
Oh and the neighbour loves the moos going there to help keep their 100 acres down to save them having to do it. We are about to install double gates between the properties for easier access and moo movements.

We had two separate environmental studies done before we purchased the Dexters. I knew what we were buying and sought advice how to balance the land with bovines. Because of the native grasses, the studies spanned over an 18 month period.
They both provided advice on where to place dams and paddock watering holes during the drought period and we were pleased to see they were right when the drought broke.

But we will watch the Dexter numbers and the health of the land and make decisions as we progress through. We certainly do not want to end up weeds and dirt at anytime.

Cheers Donna