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Post by littlecowfl on Jan 12, 2018 4:50:00 GMT -5
Thanks for doing the research.
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Post by littlecowfl on Jan 12, 2018 4:57:56 GMT -5
So, why are chondro Dexters still so popular in the UK and Ireland? I see pictures of them on hilly pastures. It seems like they would lose money by raising chondros. I would assume they keep non-chondro bulls around to breed to, or are they just taking their losses?
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Post by lakeportfarms on Jan 12, 2018 8:59:21 GMT -5
By the way, much of the "knowledge" of "short-legged" vs "long-legged" Dexters acquired without benefit of the DNA tests, was highly flawed. There was no way to verify that the short-legged animals had a BD1 or BD2 gene or a normal gene. I've seen people claim that they had a healthy 20 year old "shorty" that had seemingly healthy joints, but when I ask to see a copy of the chondrodysplasia DNA test, they reply with some excuse like "I don't need to test for chondrodyplasia, I can tell by looking at them". A broken ACAN gene (chondrodyplasia) always results in reduced aggrecan protein which always results in joints with less cushioning and always results in joints that won't last as long as they otherwise would have lasted. I suppose it's possible for some pampered pets with defective chondrodysplastic joints to live longer longer than expected due to being pampered. But still, I've never seen a list of 20 year old healthy Dexters with chondro-positive DNA tests. At it again Kirk? Don't you have anything better to do? And yes, Inky (the 20 year old short legged cow) just calved a week or so ago. A short legged bull calf. How do you know your bull Ambassador isn't a "fresh mutation" BD3 carrier? I've also heard the "fact" that fresh mutations happen with Dexters, especially with horns. Please o' please make it so !!! I guess you won't know until you line breed him to one of his daughters, or two of his descendants are bred together. Or maybe one of my shortie bulls jumped his fence, traveled 2500 miles, jumped your fence, and bred your cow. I've heard you say it happens. Have you tested him? Just wondering If he is one of my bulls that bred your cow, I guess I could see that jumping two fences and traveling 2500 miles could cause some premature wear on the joints. He's only 6 year old now and getting around just fine, but I'll start looking for signs of arthritis in 5-6 years and let you know. Oh, and that photo of the joint. I know that is Shirley Gump's bull/steer that she was raising. Part Jersey, and a couple of years ago she posted a video of him at a year or so of age limping around. They were pastured in a field full of junk cars and other stuff that could easily snag a foot and cause a severe injury. Sorry that facts are so inconvenient sometimes. Hans |
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Post by Cascade Meadows Farm - Kirk on Jan 12, 2018 14:17:41 GMT -5
Inky (the 20 year old short legged cow) just calved a week or so ago. A short legged bull calf. How do you know your bull Ambassador isn't a "fresh mutation" BD3 carrier? Hans Can you please post Inky's chondrodysplasia test result from the lab. Whenever you get an animal that has exceptional features quite different from the parents, you do need to keep an eye out for problem mutation genes. We've laughed on our farm about the idea of having the first BD3 mutation occur here... It would be highly ironic. I'm pretty certain that Ambassador doesn't have a lethal gene form of dwarfism because both of his parents are quite short and thick. I've already bred him back on his mother and grandmother and sisters and aunts that are also quite short and thick. So we will see his first calves this coming spring... And then he will breed bunches of his daughters next year. All good bulls can freely breed their own daughters with good results. Bulls that can't breed all their daughters with decent results, are problem bulls that should be culled. Concerning the above borrowed photo of the hip joint diseased by chondrodysplasia.. It has arthritic lesions and typical chondrodysplastic malformation and no sign of injury nor bruising, nor scarring from any possible accident. My healthy non-chondro herd often runs through thick woods, over and under logs, and through sharp pointy limbs and have never had an injury. My 12-14 year old cows run like 6 year old cows. |
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Post by littlecowfl on Jan 12, 2018 16:02:20 GMT -5
Hmm, that's confusing. If there are healthy old chondro cows (which I know mine is not, so she and her offspring will be culled) are there different genes controlling dwarfism? I am not interested in breeding chondro cows, but it sure would be nice if we could select for healthy animals with the dwarf gene. Are there successful aged bulls with chondro? Is that what the UK is doing? I still don't understand how they can afford to favor chondro animals over there. We should solve this mystery with open minds. There is room for everyone's preferences, as long we are all selecting for healthy animals. If someone has older chondro cattle that are doing well, we should find out how they achieved this. For the good of the breed. I have my own preferences, but I have no agenda. This should be a scientific type inquiry.
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Post by Cascade Meadows Farm - Kirk on Jan 12, 2018 17:46:49 GMT -5
In the UK, there are lots of excellent herds that have short compact Dexters without chondrodysplasia. The Harron herd is one example, the Burnside herd is another example, the Duffryn herd is another example. You don't need a chondrodysplasia disease gene to have short friendly Dexters. There are other normal healthy genes that can give you everything you want in short friendly Dexters.
Some herds in the UK (and US too), don't test all their animals. They wrongly assume that all the short ones are chondro.... But lots of their short ones are likely true-short, non-chondro. They have very few losses because their herds are mostly non-chondro, true-shorts.
There are non-chondro true-breeding genes in Dexters that will give you 100% healthy, friendly, short, compact, trouble-free Dexters, that can safely be bred together, with great reliable results.
There is no reason to use a chondrodysplasia disease gene (a lethal gene) to accomplish that which can be done with other normal healthy true-short genes.
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Post by littlecowfl on Jan 13, 2018 5:36:55 GMT -5
That makes more sense. There has been a trend in the US towards Dexters that exceed the written height standard at a fairly young age. Is that still the case, or are people trying for naturally shorter Dexters again? When I bull shop, I favor naturally shorter animals that will, hopefully, remain within the height standard as they age, but I don't think they would be considered short by UK standards.
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Post by lakeportfarms on Jan 13, 2018 7:01:29 GMT -5
Inky (the 20 year old short legged cow) just calved a week or so ago. A short legged bull calf. How do you know your bull Ambassador isn't a "fresh mutation" BD3 carrier? Hans Can you please post Inky's chondrodysplasia test result from the lab. Whenever you get an animal that has exceptional features quite different from the parents, you do need to keep an eye out for problem mutation genes. We've laughed on our farm about the idea of having the first BD3 mutation occur here... It would be highly ironic. I'm pretty certain that Ambassador doesn't have a lethal gene form of dwarfism because both of his parents are quite short and thick. I've already bred him back on his mother and grandmother and sisters and aunts that are also quite short and thick. So we will see his first calves this coming spring... And then he will breed bunches of his daughters next year. All good bulls can freely breed their own daughters with good results. Bulls that can't breed all their daughters with decent results, are problem bulls that should be culled. Concerning the above borrowed photo of the hip joint diseased by chondrodysplasia.. It has arthritic lesions and typical chondrodysplastic malformation and no sign of injury nor bruising, nor scarring from any possible accident. My healthy non-chondro herd often runs through thick woods, over and under logs, and through sharp pointy limbs and have never had an injury. My 12-14 year old cows run like 6 year old cows. Apparently you don't deny that the young steer was pastured in something resembling a private junkyard? And how do you explain that I have dozens and dozens of chondro carriers that exceed his age by a large margin, and who don't exhibit any signs of arthritis? Sure, send me $20 to test a 20 year old cow and I'll be happy to do it. Perhaps you should spend your time being helpful and optimistic about your own herd to your prospective buyers, rather than resorting to disparaging the Dexters that others choose to raise. You've been beaten over the head about it time and time again, yet you still obsess over chondrodysplasia, and it has turned off far more people than you have discouraged from chondro. |
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Post by Cascade Meadows Farm - Kirk on Jan 13, 2018 10:56:20 GMT -5
It's certainly interesting that people claim to know of a tiny handful of older BD1 chondro Dexters, but when asked to produce a chondrodysplasia test, they fail to do so.
I support choice. But valid choices require FULLY-INFORMED decision making.
Chondrodysplasia breeders fight to keep information hidden.
When it comes to short, friendly Dexters, there are two choices:
Choice 1. Deformed Chondro Dexters with a cartilage disease gene that is lethal at birth in homozygous-chondro calves and leads to crippling arthritis at early ages in heterozygous-chondro animals.
Choice 2. Naturally short and healthy and friendly Dexters with naturally shorter genetics.
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Post by Cascade Meadows Farm - Kirk on Jan 13, 2018 11:16:09 GMT -5
That makes more sense. There has been a trend in the US towards Dexters that exceed the written height standard at a fairly young age. Is that still the case, or are people trying for naturally shorter Dexters again? When I bull shop, I favor naturally shorter animals that will, hopefully, remain within the height standard as they age, but I don't think they would be considered short by UK standards. There are a good number of US breeders selecting toward naturally shorter Dexters these days. If you look at the ADCA AI Bull list, you'll see a number of naturally shorter bulls appearing. Concerning UK standards, here is their current standard for bull height: "Bulls Between 42 and 48 inches (106 and 121 cm) at the rump." My latest herd sire Cascade's Ambassador (non-chondro) is currently at about 38" at near age 2 and will likely top-out at 40-41" at age 7. So he will likely be too short for the UK Standard. The US Guidelines say most Dexter bulls should be 38"- 44" |
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Post by lakeportfarms on Jan 13, 2018 14:40:57 GMT -5
It's certainly interesting that people claim to know of a tiny handful of older BD1 chondro Dexters, but when asked to produce a chondrodysplasia test, they fail to do so. I support choice. But valid choices require FULLY-INFORMED decision making. Chondrodysplasia breeders fight to keep information hidden. When it comes to short, friendly Dexters, there are two choices: Choice 1. Deformed Chondro Dexters with a cartilage disease gene that is lethal at birth in homozygous-chondro calves and leads to crippling arthritis at early ages in heterozygous-chondro animals. Choice 2. Naturally short and healthy and friendly Dexters with naturally shorter genetics. I am getting a bit tired coming over here and responding to your complete lack of knowledge about how to identify a carrier, because you've probably never seen one in person. I'm not spending $20 on a test for what I know to be a carrier. Tough for you. If you want to continue the discussion come on over to Dexter Cattle Enthusiast page on Facebook. Oh, I forgot, you were banned from the group because you couldn't stop repeatedly posting about chondro and everybody was tired of hearing about it. |
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Post by Cascade Meadows Farm - Kirk on Jan 13, 2018 17:57:31 GMT -5
The Dexter Enthusiasts Facebook page is run by Dexter genetic disease enthusiasts and they don't allow important genetics science information to be posted, because they know that if new people saw all the facts, those new people would shun the chondrodysplasia disease and would choose naturally short and friendly Dexters, tested free of all known genetic diseases. If you want real facts, the Dexter Breeders facebook group is for real factual genetic information and everyone is welcome to post there as long as they are nice about it. m.facebook.com/groups/1043824415706481?view=permalink&id=1499749713447280&ref=bookmarks |
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Post by cddexter on Jan 14, 2018 1:24:38 GMT -5
Had a nice chat with Donna today about her factual mini livestock website which includes diseases, and chondro, see Kirk's first post in this thread. She's going to correct the bit about boneless, and clarify BD2 being in Dexters only in NZ and AU from the original outcross with Polly the Red Poll. I'd still like to see the North American Dex assns. add a rider that any Dexter imported (live, semen, embryo) from AU or NZ be tested for BD2 so we don't get it here. Anyone listening?
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Post by littlecowfl on Jan 14, 2018 5:24:05 GMT -5
That sounds like a good idea.
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Post by littlecowfl on Jan 17, 2018 10:08:16 GMT -5
That makes more sense. There has been a trend in the US towards Dexters that exceed the written height standard at a fairly young age. Is that still the case, or are people trying for naturally shorter Dexters again? When I bull shop, I favor naturally shorter animals that will, hopefully, remain within the height standard as they age, but I don't think they would be considered short by UK standards. There are a good number of US breeders selecting toward naturally shorter Dexters these days. If you look at the ADCA AI Bull list, you'll see a number of naturally shorter bulls appearing. Concerning UK standards, here is their current standard for bull height: "Bulls Between 42 and 48 inches (106 and 121 cm) at the rump." My latest herd sire Cascade's Ambassador (non-chondro) is currently at about 38" at near age 2 and will likely top-out at 40-41" at age 7. So he will likely be too short for the UK Standard. The US Guidelines say most Dexter bulls should be 38"- 44" Actually, the standard listed on the ADCA website is this: Cows: Typical range in height is 34-46 inches, with a majority in the range of 36-42 inches, measured at the hip. Bulls: Typical range in height is 36-50 inches, with a majority in the range of 38-44 inches, measured at the hip. |
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