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Post by prairieboy on Sept 4, 2009 10:08:47 GMT -5
One question I have about Dexter cattle is their height measurement. Since there is a breed standard, is there a specific place to measure height?
We are considering a bull or AI services, it seems that as you read the sales ads or AI, one will list the height "at the shoulder" another says at the "hip", still others do not specify and just list a height.
Where is the proper place to measure a bull for height? Also, is this the same place for a cows listed height?
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Post by Clive on Sept 4, 2009 13:48:42 GMT -5
I THINK the answer is that you should measure at the top of the hip.
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Post by legendrockranch on Sept 4, 2009 23:17:29 GMT -5
The classification program that Patti has been working on has animals measured at the "hip", following the general guidelines of most other breeds of cattle. The majority of the ADCA AI bulls are measured at the hip. Perhaps Patti will see this and chime in.
Barb
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Post by Clive on Sept 5, 2009 4:41:34 GMT -5
People over here use the withers as well Gene, because that used to be the place, but the official now is the hip (I am almost certain). Confusingly though, you will see everywhere that THE place to measure is the "rump". You then have to dig and dig to find out that the definition of rump (for measuring purposes) is the hip!!! I think DCS say measure at the rump, or at least used to, but what they mean is, at the hip. I have cattle where the top of the rump and the top of the hip are vastly different. When I looked at the measuring systems in depth (not Dexter), I also found that the "professionals" measure the hip, and they make an allowance for condition otherwise they'll be measuring fat on top of the hip.
The problem with measuring also is that it may not give you the true genetic height of the animal. Obviously a chondro will not be displaying it's true genetic height but also animals that have been on poor grazing can be considerably shorter than what they would be had they been on good stuff. I've had animals shoot up on my farm where our grazing is high in protein and feed value, so any animal measured here is probably showing his maximum true height. It can be inches from what I have learned.
One guy sold me a bull that was within standard, it grew and grew here. So I got him to measure him again two year later aged about 6. He was 50" and the man was quite embarrassed but it wasn't his fault.
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Post by kansasdexters on Sept 5, 2009 10:21:33 GMT -5
Here is a link to instructions on how to properly measure an animal at the hip (you will need to scroll down through the consent form to get to the instruction sheet): www.dextercattle.org/concentform&instructions.pdfThe ADCA Classification Committee has an ongoing study to accumulate hip height data on mature Dexter cattle. Over 100 animals have been measured to date. But we set out with a goal of getting more than 500 mature animals measured, so the study is not yet complete. These data will be used to determine the biological height range of mature, registered Dexters (male and female) in the United States, the standard deviation for height, the effect of chondrodysplasia on height, and provide the basis for any future standards or breed guidelines that may need to be developed. The Classification of Dexter cattle in the United States determines stature by measuring hip height, not shoulder height. This is consistent with the Breed Description adopted at the First World Congress for Dexter Cattle in 1998 (held at the Royal Agricultural College in Cirencester, England). At the 2007 Annual General Meeting (AGM), the ADCA membership voted on and approved a Classification Program that evaluates stature based on hip height measurement, rather than shoulder height. For bulls, the typical range in height is between 36 and 50 inches; the preferred height for all mature (3+ years old) males is between 40 and 44 inches, measured at the hip. For cows, the typical range is between 34 and 46 inches; the preferred height for mature (3+ years old) females is between 38 and 42 inches, measured at the hip. However, the current ADCA breed guideline, that was adopted by the ADCA Membership at the AGM in 1982 (for bulls) and 1983 (for cows), gives the following criteria and measures at the shoulder (reference: Dexter Cattle by John Hays, 1984): "Height - Bulls should not exceed more than 44 inches in height nor stand less than 38 inches in height at the shoulder, at three years of age." "Height - Mature cows should not exceed 42 inches in height nor stand less than 36 inches in height at the shoulder." The current ADCA breed guideline has not been modified yet, because the ADCA leadership wanted to have the results of the hip height study complete and available to provide a sound basis for modifying the guidelines, if modification is deemed necessary and desirable after review by the Board and supported by a majority of the membership. In other words, we don't want to institute arbitrary changes that don't make sense. Hope this helps. Patti Adams ADCA Classification Committee Member
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Post by prairieboy on Sept 5, 2009 10:34:33 GMT -5
Yes, it does give some clarification. Thank you!
With the height of Dexter's being one of their prominent distinctions, I thought there would be a clear standard not just a guideline especially for National shows etc.... Apparently this is not a clear cut, one way only issue.....at least not yet.
Perhaps, it is best this way because it "guides me" in the way most Dexter people want the breed to be sized, yet allows variance if someone chooses. But then there is risk of the market changing the breed.
Thank you.
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Post by Clive on Sept 6, 2009 2:09:29 GMT -5
The "standard" in the UK is called a standard, but it is just a guideline because the society knowingly accepts the registration of any dexter as a dexter as long as it's parents are both dexters. That sounds logical and it is, BUT....I am getting reports of dexters with carcass weights (hookweight?) in the high 200's and even 300 kg.
Unfortunately, because people believe that the flavour in the beef comes from the breed, then obviously a bigger dexter is great because you get more meat with the same flavour. But you just don't; you get more meat with almost no Dexter flavour in my experience, and you'd be better off doing a cross which is what we're doing with 2/3rd of our herd.
If I were doing a national or international certified beef scheme for dexters, I would insist on a carcass weight top limit, just like they do with Angus Prime, but around 200-230kg.
The little bull hasn't grown properly has he Gene? He looks like some of our tiny cade lambs, all belly and no muscle. You feed 'em the best you've got but nothing happens!
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Post by kansasdexters on Sept 6, 2009 14:49:08 GMT -5
Genebo,
A 50-inch hip height on a mature Dexter bull is a "typical" height for a non-carrier of chondro that happens to either be sired by a chondro-carrier bull of 44-inch hip height or be out of a chondro-carrier cow that was 42-inch hip height.
The effect of being a chondro-carrier has been shown to be significant, such that the "true" biological potential for stature is masked in the sire or dam, but it may be expressed in the offspring that descend from them that don't carry the gene for chondrodysplasia.
What most people don't realize is that a bull (and some cows) continue to grow until 5 or 6 years old. Most Dexter breeders don't keep a bull around that long and measure him, so they don't seem to be aware of this. A well nourished chondro-noncarrier Dexter bull that is 43 or 44-inch hip height at 3 years old, may eventually become a 49-inch or 50-inch bull when he is fully mature at 6 or 7 years old.
Since you've used only chondro-carrier bulls on your Dexter cows, you've probably not seen this. It appears (from the limited amount of data that I've seen to date) that chondro-carrier bulls reach their mature stature sooner than non-carrier bulls do.
The goal of the ADCA hip height study is to measure enough mature animals, male and female, chondro-carrier and non-carrier, to obtain a true, representative sample of the Dexter breed in the United States. Like most biological traits, stature follows a bell-shaped curve. When we have obtained a sufficient number of measurements (coming from every region) to constitute a "representative sample", we will see these bell-shaped curves and be able to accurately calculate the standard deviations for stature.
The validity of the stature data can be tested statistically. There is no point in "stacking" the deck because if that were done, the validity of the data would be compromised and it would "fail" under statistical analysis. If it's worth doing, then it's worth doing right.
Sincerely,
Patti Adams
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Post by kansasdexters on Sept 6, 2009 16:14:10 GMT -5
Genebo,
There is an accepted guideline in place for stature and most Dexter breeders do attempt to stay within that guideline if they are aware of it (and that includes many of the larger herds).
The point that you seem to be missing in all this discussion is that even the "guideline" for shoulder height is a relatively recent criteria (adopted in 1982 for bulls and 1983 for cows). Prior to that, weight was the criteria that Dexter breeders used to go by.
Prior to 1982, the old criteria for size stated that, "in mature form the standard weights are 900 pounds as a maximum for the bull and 800 pounds as a maximum for the cow when in breeding condition." (Reference: "Types and Breeds of Farm Animals" by Charles S. Plumb, 1920.)
The stature criteria that were adopted by the ADCA in 1982 and 1983 simply followed what the Dexter Cattle Society (DCS) in Great Britain had done, a few years after the DCS modified and adopted their new "standards". It was arbitrary and it wasn't based on anything other than following what another Dexter breed society in another country had already done.
Doing a proper study of the breed in the United States to determine what the actual ranges are for stature of mature Dexter cattle is a logical way to help better understand our breed and how it varies regionally and nationally in size, and how chondrodysplasia affects mature size in chondro-carriers compared with non-carriers.
This won't automatically change anything in the breed guidelines, but it will help us to better understand the size choices that US breeders are making and the effect(s) those choices are having on the Dexter breed in the United States. If anything, it may help provide Dexter breeders in the future with a real basis for setting a real "standard".
When the ADCA adopted the shoulder height "standard" for Dexter bulls in 1982, they also changed the weight criteria "standard" to: "Bulls at three years old and over should not exceed 1,000 lb live weight". In 1983, they changed the weight criteria "standard" to include: "Cows at three years old and over should not exceed 750 lb live weight." So, does that mean that Dexter bulls got bigger and Dexter cows got smaller??? No, it doesn't.
Cheers,
Patti
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Post by Clive on Sept 8, 2009 3:35:00 GMT -5
On our farm, the largest and tallest steers we have ever produced came from a short, carrier bull. Looking back, he was actually a large animal but because he had chondrodysplasia, his legs had not grown properly. His calves showed what he really was. He was genetically, i.e. naturally, bigger than my 50" non-short bull. i.e. my short bull was really just a 52" bull with stunted legs is probably the best way of putting it. Personally I would go further than has been said and I actually see no point at all in measuring any animal that is suffering from any condition that causes their legs to be stunted whether that be chondro or any other problem, such as being set back early in life or lack of nutrition. We only use non-chondro for beef because we must have consistency otherwise our particular market would not tolerate the variations. We are trying to develop really chunky non-shorts for beef and they may end up not being quite as dual-purpose, still loads of milk but nearer the beefier end of dual-purpose. When I was referring to large carcasses losing their flavour, in fairness our 50" bull was fine although I wouldn't use anything bigger for pure Dexter. Carcasses from him on all sorts of cows, large and small, were very consistent, and ranged from 190-220KG deadweight / hookweight at about 24 months off grass, no feed. Except for just one cow who will always produce about 250kg hookweight. What I was trying to say was that when you get a carcass in the high 100's, it generally seems to have more of the Dexter flavour than when you get up to mid 200's. The larger carcasses are still excellent but missing that strength of flavour which you have either tasted or you haven't. Some people don't like the strength of flavour; my wife prefers Dexter cross! So with reports of 300kg carcasses being produced I am sort of assuming that the dexter flavour would be watered down even more and probably disappear totally or almost completely. But I wasn't actually just guessing because that is what some other producers have said, but I haven't tasted beef at the upper end of the weight scale myself yet, but I will be doing because I am going to try and produce some to prove the point, from the one cow I have. Taking about flavour is very hard as everyone's experience is different. What I do know is that Dexter is considerably "better" or has more flavour than the very best Certified Angus Prime that we had in the only restaurant in New York that cooks it. It doesn't get any better
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Post by kansasdexters on Sept 8, 2009 16:17:43 GMT -5
Thanks for sharing that Clive. Since we have both chondro-carrier and non-carrier Dexter cows in our herd, we get to see the difference in the progeny they produce by using the same non-carrier bull on them, year after year.
Our chondro-carrier steers typically mature at 24 months and usually weigh between 300 and 325 kg (live weight), when finished on grass pasture. The non-carrier Dexter steers finish at 26 - 29 months and typically weigh between 360 and 400 kg (live weight). Hanging weights (hook weight) are about 62% of the live weight. So we're right in your preferred weight range with our steers less than 250 kg hook weight for the chondro-noncarriers (non-shorts) and less than 200 kg hook weight for the chondro-carrier steers (shorties).
Being able to offer our customers both sizes is actually an advantage in our local market for grass fed/grass finished beef. Several families prefer the smaller chondro-carrier steers -- so that's what they ask for. Our wholesale customer (a local natural foods store) usually gets one shortie and one non-short or two non-shorts.
Dry aging the properly finished carcass for 21-days brings out the rich, sweet, beefy flavor and natural tenderness that sets Dexter beef well ahead of anything else in the meat case. Once most people try it, they'll buy it again and again.
Patti
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Post by prairieboy on Sept 8, 2009 17:14:52 GMT -5
I have enjoyed this discussion. Being a neophyte to the Dexter breed, I have many questions and very little knowledge to contribute.
This exchange has been helpful to me in helping me draw my own views on what I would like to see in my pasture.
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Post by Clive on Sept 9, 2009 2:19:01 GMT -5
That beef looks yummy Gene. Chondros are great for producing beef for home use or limited direct sale; they only have to see grass! From what I read chondrodyspasia tends to obesity, so they put on fat more easily. Personally, I don't think it's a case just of the same amount of meat on less bone/area. That, together with usually a smaller size gives you a stronger flavour IMHO. But you can do the same with small non-carriers by (a) introducing a little more of something to fatten them (we use white clover) and (b) breed small. We've split our herd in two. Half go to an Angus, and now half to a small non-chondro dexter but we could have done a small Dexter and a bigger one, I just wanted more of a differential.
Patti - with our white clover we are now finishing at 23-25 months for longs. Other farms also report taking months off their finishing times and achieving the same or more weights with excellent marbling doing the same. But we have to keep cows off it which make life a bit complicated. Some are using red clover/grass mixes for their forage.
I think I'm repeating myself; got to that age now!
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Post by Clive on Sept 9, 2009 12:54:45 GMT -5
I have two animals that are pretty well identical except one is a shortie and one is a long, and if I can I will try and cull them as near to each other as possible and see what difference I get in the flavour. That's 18 months away. My animals have got used to the clover as a local dairy man said they might. They don't bloat any more. Don't know why. Here's a pic of a T-Bone from a non-short, 26 month old bull, medium size and build. The beef was about the best we've ever had and three out of 4 regular dexter eaters around the table said the same, but the rumps were like shoe leather so we're not going to do a bull again. All the internal marbling disappeared the minute it hit the pan.
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Post by kansasdexters on Sept 9, 2009 19:04:59 GMT -5
Hi Clive, That sure is a well finished beef! Plenty of intramuscular fat and enough on the outside of the carcass to allow for proper aging. I wish that we could grow white clover here, but it gets too hot and dry during most of the summer months. Our Dexter cattle don't seem to care for red clover at all! Here are some photos of our Dexter beef. The first photo is a cross-sectional view at the 12th rib. This is where the ribeye area is measured during the carcass grading: The next photo is what the Dexter Tenderloin, KC Strip, and Ribeye steaks look like in the meat case where a local grocer offers our freshly cut, grass fed/grass finished Dexter beef for sale to the public: Cheers, Patti
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