Milk Performance in Dexters

[kansasdexters]

Mike,

All I can say is that you need to be very careful about putting too much faith into the performance (or lack of performance) from only one or two cows in a single season. FYI, We routinely wean Dexter calves at 8 - 9 months of age on our ranch (in Kansas) with a weanling weights between 400 and 500 lb. Their birth weights are typically 40 to 50 lb. You seem to forget that the first week in September 2013, the Midwestern states (including Arkansas) experienced temperatures over 100 oF. That definitely affected milk production, and not in a good way. After you accumulate more data, on more cows, then you can draw some realistic conclusions. You're just not there yet.

Patti

[stephanie]

Reading the above posts has made me realise how lucky I am to have Woodmagic dexters! The calves just suck from one teat for the first week or so, usually a front one, then two teats and by time they are about 6 weeks old they are taking the whole lot. Beryl reckoned her best cows gave about 5 and a half gallons  and didn't tail of in lactation as quickly as a black and white cow. The Woodmagics were bred for generations to milk, Beryl had a rotary milking parlour, so anything with a fair bit of her breeding in it should milk quite well for you.

I don't milk mine, I had enough of that when I was a dairy farmer but I do sometimes take a few pints of colostrum for the freezer, in case it is needed. I took half a gallon off a 20 month heifer whilst her calf was suckling. Which brings me to a point....you will get better let down if you milk one side whilst the calf has the other, there have been occasions when people have thought a cow had little milk but she was simply keeping it for the calf, also you are more likely to get the best bit this way as the most cream is in the last of the milk to come through.

Stephanie

[Gorignak]

Since this particular thread is about milkiness in cows…we can work with the numbers provided.These represent the 4 possibilities with 400-500 lbs and 8-9 months weaning.

400lb calf - 45 lbs birth weight = 355lb at 9 months weaning....or 1.3 lbs / day gain = 13 lbs milk output.......13 lbs / 8.5lbs per gal = 1.5 gal / day cow production
400lb calf - 45 lbs birth weight = 355lb at 8 months weaning....or 1.5 lbs / day gain = 15 lbs milk output.......15 lbs / 8.5lbs per gal = 1.7 gal / day cow production
500lb calf - 45 lbs birth weight = 455lb at 9 months weaning....or 1.7 lbs / day gain = 17 lbs milk output.......17 lbs / 8.5lbs per gal =
2 gal / day cow production
500lb calf - 45 lbs birth weight = 455lb at 8 months weaning....or 1.9 lbs / day gain = 19 lbs milk output.......19 lbs / 8.5lbs per gal = 2.25 gal / day cow production

With the numbers provided, the best to the worst milk output possibilities is a range of +/- 30%.....so, we need to tighten that figure up. BUT, the best possible milk output is 2.25 gal / day. There is no accounting for any drop off as the rumen kicks in at 5 - 6 months. So, while that level of milk production might be perfect for a small beef operation...IT IS ABYSMAL FOR ANYONE WANTING TO CALF/HALF SHARE MILK, OR CALL A COW A "GOOD MILKER", WHEN THE CALF IS REMOVED.
Those milk production numbers are the figures I am running scared from. It is what most of the Americans would be instructed to accept as,  " the best you can expect".
There are four noteworthy statements in the, "foreigner's" posts...……. re-read the posts and see what the rest of the world considers a "milk cow". Carol D got my attention with the 4 gal start and 2.5 gal finish. Is Beryl’s, “5.5 gallons / day”, published somewhere or is it just legend. Were any figures given as to overall,  “average performance",  in her herd ??
Dorothy is a miserable milker. We milked her from day 1 (May 11) until last week, and, in between, measured the calf weekly to gauge output ……... Sheila, for a 36" heifer, holds promise. I'd like to get all my numbers up in the 3 gal range for starts.... then, work up from there. Sheila should do 3 gal/day on lactation #2. The heat had nothing to do with it. Our mountaintop setting is cool and breezy, and moderates temperature extremes. Plus, we have the benefit of north slope and south slope pastures being 100 yards apart. I can warm them in the cold, and cool them in the heat. Dorothy's production, in hindsight, was poor last year, poor this year, and it will be poor next year. First kick is the mule's fault.... second kick is my fault.

I won't be dismissed for wanting excellence,or challenging mediocrity. I don't expect much help, either, at least not from folks living in this country. Hey, I'm not trying to upset your little apple carts. You go ahead and sell the folks a Dexter, or two, or three, to put out on the 10 acres they bought, or put in their freezer. Go for it, while this little Ponzi scheme plays out. I see a brick wall ahead.

I'm going to try and avoid the results of breeding that has caused the incredible mediocrity in milk output. Give me a break......MILK is what a cow is about....it is the centerpiece, the crown jewel of breeding. To increase beef production, you also have to increase milk production, or all your genetics hit a choke point. Paper, after paper, after study, after research, show the importance of the first 6 months of a calf's life. Milk is the key to development in that period. So, be it milk parlor or beef herd …MILK PRODUCTION IS SUPREMELY IMPORTANT.

What brings me back to Dexters .....time and again.....is another figure.....I am certain that the one trait that hasn't been over amplified, exaggerated, or suffered the "boutique" breeding trends, is the breed's feed efficiency. I have witnessed that time and again in my, and others Dexters. I believe the statement that I read early in researching the breed, that Dexters produce more milk and more beef from less feed than any other breed is absolutely correct. Now, on to the task …..... I have to set out to maintain that excellence, and recover some semblance of milking capability..

Pairing a fast growing calf's genetics, with a poor milking cow's output is a DISASTER......Amen.

[lakeportfarms]

I have gained a new appreciation of what the BD-1 gene can be used for, so pardon if I deviate and ramp up our genetic spread with the higher number of cattle the chondro carrier cows would allow me to sustain. I'm headed where many are....non chondro, sub 40" cows. 50 % of my calves will be non-chondro, and will be the pool WE select from.



Read more: dextercattle.proboards.com/thread/3704/milk-performance-dexters?page=4#ixzz2nSCHQEDD

Mike, I'm confused...you said you are going to ramp up the numbers of chondro positive cows due to the ability to sustain larger numbers, but you're going to select non-carriers (sub 40") as your replacements.  Those two goals seem to be at odds with each other.  It's VERY difficult to determine which, if any, of your offspring are going to mature at that size until they're nearly to "adulthood".  And while you're waiting you'll be feeding those replacements with nothing in return.  When you finally determine they're too large for your goals they won't sell for much if any more than a just weaned 7 month old heifer.

[lakeportfarms]

Dec 13, 2013 11:08:42 GMT -5 RedRidge said:

I will preface my response to this by saying that I either milk share our leave calves onfor 4-6 months (or longer). That said... I will also say I know of quite a few dexter owners who are weaning successfully at 30-60 days. Do I do it this way? No. But have I seen the results of those who have? Yes. They wean this early to not only get more hands on with their calves but to sell them earlier.
So... in response to the last post... a management system of this sort would work exceptionally well for high forage converting animals. You don't need milkiness, you need quality forage. And yes... much to my surprise these calves do quite well when weaned earlier than I would think acceptable. I wouldn't have believed it but they do.

Sheri,

It's hard to believe that anybody is weaning at 30 days without bottle feeding, and 60 days is a stretch as well.  The earliest we've ever weaned is 60 days but they're successfully on milk replacer.  And it's not easy to get a 7 week old calf on milk replacer!  And you're correct that excellent forage is a crucial element if this is to be done.  Weaning early does help with the socialization of the animal, and some new owners want to take their new calf home as soon as possible, so there are some financial advantages in being able to accommodate that.

However, if the goal is to get the animal to the size that they can safely be bred, weaning early is not a good choice.  Though they'll eventually reach their genetic potential no matter how they start out (assuming that their nutrition normalizes after 6 or 8 months), it takes a lot longer to get there when they're weaned early.   So there is a cost down the road with heifers, steers, and even bulls.  If we have a buyer who requests a calf early, we make sure to tell them that they will probably need to wait several months longer than normal before they should be bred.

[Julie]

I am really enjoying this thread! So much food for thought. Are weight tapes accurate for measuring Dexter calves, or do you need a scale? Also, is there a formula for what to feed cows to maximize their milk output? I am thinking along the lines of "nature vs. nurture" - of course the genetics of the cow will play a role in how milky she is, but how do you best support a Dexter milk cow on limited grain? Are any of you that are keeping records on calf growth and milk quantity also doing forage testing to see % protein and TDN? I am lucky to live in an area with several hay options, and I wonder what I should plan on getting for next winter when my cows will be nursing calves (and some will be being milked.) I am doing rotational grazing, with a goal of only feeding hay for 8-10 weeks. This year I made it through the first week of December on grass, so I will be feeding hay for about 14 weeks this year. I am wondering if the nutrition of stockpiled grass (mostly fescue) will be adequate for cow/calves, or if I need to look at adding alfalfa or a higher protein grass. I will be re-seeding one field this year, so I could experiment with what I plant there. I want to limit grain intake as much as possible, for the health of the cows rumens as well as from an environmental and economic standpoint. What are your thoughts?

[Gorignak]

I'm not going to ramble about, or grind too fine, a business plan....Older and wiser. Nobody here is making much sense....REALLY....Yes, I don't see many plans that work , long term anywhere. NOW, short term, everyone can Ponzi out a lot of boutique genetics to wannabees who think the next easy mark is just down the road.

I abandoned immediate  focus on sub 40"about three posts ago.....just as I decided to dehorn everything. I will not buy into the polled craze.....those genetics are going to be too restrictive for now. And choosing for color is just about like choosing for the sounds of their moo. HEY....go for it guys, there might even be SOME black in your ledger now and then.....But, long term goals require long term thinking....I've got a backhoe and a spot picked out in the pines with my favorite dogs, where the cows lay in the shade on hot summer days, that the kids can bury me in....I'll work at the planning for their, and the next generation while I still can.

The genetic choke in the 70's is rearing its ugly head. I am going to accumulate diverse genetics early on and in as great a range as possible. The size, horns, and color crazes have the really important traits masked in the boutique frenzy.
NOBODY.....ABSOLUTELY NOBODY... Except for the Brits, Aussies and Carol D can hold a rational conversation about milk production. Let's EVERYONE get their laundry on the line, huh....When I had the bulldog calf, Olga kindly put a locked post at the beginning of the Breeding Calving Thread....Asking everyone to reassure the  masses that this was an isolated and unusual problem. THAT THREAD REALLY TOOK OFF...HUH....NOT !!!!! Look at "Incidence of Birth Problems" Thanks Clive....thanks Carol D, and Barb N....and the few others who honestly shared their experience
So, I'll play my cards as close as everyone else. It is MORE than adequate, and fair of me to lay bare my wins and losses, and comment that I can't make sense of most that I am reading here. I have a plan.
Most who have the information are offering much less than "full disclosure".

I have lived among ranchers now for 40 years. My closest neighbor is illiterate...yes, can't read or write. He has evolved from a herd of 40 mongrel cows to a nice herd of nearly 200 momma cows. The market here is stocker calves.....600lbs , back to a grass ranch for 6 months, then on to the feed lot. He plays the nutrition game a lot closer than I like. His cows hover near the minimum body condition score almost all year except in the spring/early summer flush of grass. He pens them, feeds the last of his hay and cuts the first growth in April/May from his 200 acres of mowable pasture.
He commercial fertilizes in the spring, and gets about 15, 4x5 bales / acre. When I moved in, he had 80 acres and was the poorest person I had ever been closely associated with. He has 300 acres now, and has to be worth in excess of 1.4 M $$. His yearly gross, about $140K
He has adjusted his cows to keep ones that raise a fat, healthy calf...on grass only....and he spares no expense on bulls. He turns out a nice 600 lb calf, and buyers come to him directly. He, and they, save the auction uptick and health issues.
THAT IS A PLAN....though the specifics may be different, planning for several generations consists of far more than hurried weaning for quick turnover. The value in Dexters is in their adaptability, in their compact and efficient size, in their ability to produce adequate and/or excess milk, and to grow out a small beef in a reasonable amount of time. Those traits are in classic genetics. And, those genetics are becoming encumbered with selection for traits that do not make sense. I have to tease what I need out of a mish-mosh of short sighted pairings.
Chasing anything else is folly...... temporarily profitable, endowed with a socially trending cachet,and quasi-spiritually satisfying...but folly none the less.

I have a plan................

BTW.....I am going to seize the diverging thought in this thread, and start another thread about weaning, milk replacer types, digestive maturation and feed options....those of you with the knowledge and experience would save a lot of calves, and a lot of heartbreak helping everyone avoid the worst of the farm store,TSC 20/20 milk replacer that is just about like raising a 6 month old child on Hershey's chocolate dissolved in soda pop. Lots of info out there.....rapidly evolving.....and there is a strong argument for the economics of a replacer/creep raised calf if your genetics don't contain adequate milk output.

Good on ya' Louise for this thread.....feelin' accomplished ?? You should. Freezing cold here...ice dams on all the eaves. Spent all day today breaking them off...all yesterday was spent bulldozing 2 miles of ice covered County Road so we could get off the mountain. WHEEEEEEE

[marion]

You know Mike, I really think you need to take a deep breath, let it out slowly...relax stop grandstanding and insulting everyone. Back in the year dot, well at least in the 1960's (and '70's and '80's), I was a goatlady. A guy used to drop by my place and quiz me for hours about goats, their breeding and complicated feeding rations and management plans. He had done a lot of reading and used to bring his books with him. After this went on for some months, I finally told him to just get a couple of goats, the best hay he could obtain and a bag of whole oats and barley, and go from there...
You lucked in with your first little milker. I think you need to start smallish and work into it slowly to get to where you want to be. JMO, marion
Edited to add: Polled genetics do not need to be in any way "restrictive". After this many years since polled was introduced, a Dexter can have one polled ancestor generations back and so carry the blood of many other lines.
Quote from your post Mike:
"Those traits are in classic genetics. And, those genetics are becoming encumbered with selection for traits that do not make sense. I have to tease what I need out of a mish-mosh of short sighted pairings.
Chasing anything else is folly...... temporarily profitable, endowed with a socially trending cachet,and quasi-spiritually satisfying...but folly none the less."

This is just nonsense. Just because someone chooses to breed for red and polled, it does not follow that they are not also selecting for other traits.

[Deleted]

Hi, I just want to say that you don't have to weaned early if your goal is a friendlier calf.

We don't weaned until 7-8 mths and yet we have two calves who are not yet 3 moths old who both come up to us when they see us. Braea will play with your fingers in her mouth and for a week now she has recieved rubs up and down her body. Brac was born curious and has been receiving rubs from us for over two weeks now.

Yesterday, the interaction with these two has raised the curiosity of the other 4 so much so they come over to us, sniff, lick and a couple will take a quick scratch on the forehead and then take a step backwards, before taking another step forward to again, nose and lick us.
Within the week we will expect to be able to touch and rub down these calves also.

The eldest of these calves was born 23 Sept and the youngest just a week ago. And two of them have mothers who are very wary of us still as they only arrived in March and did not have much interaction with their previous owners. Those mums are a work in progress but their calves are not.

This is why we feed treats every second or third dayto the adults. The calves see us interacting with the adults, see us walking around and begin to think nothing of it.
We both hold full time jobs off-farm. And treat time takes only around 15-20 mins a time. We don't spend hours.

I can't see how this method would be anymore time consuming than weaning early and bottle feeding.

It's food for thought for those who are seeking calves to be friendly

Cheers Donna.

[thecatzpajamas]

agreed that a lot of this info is very confusing & overwhelming.... anyway back to the original question, here's my experience with milking my dexters.... My 6 yr old dexter that i've owned for several years now is 42" @ shoulder, out of lucifer lines and very hardy, gives me 4 gals a day right off the bat and it stays that way for the entire peak (100 days)and then some. she doesn't have a dramatic drop, she's usually down to 2 or so by the time I dry her off. She's on pasture most of the year, hay during the cold months. I separate the calf in the first week, and bottle feed mama milk, and her calves grow fine. her steers are beefy and big, although I don't have numbers to back that up since we haven't butchered one ourselves. I had another cow a few years ago from different bloodlines that also gave 4 gals a day. so I don't blink an eye at claims for higher volume milk in dexters. In my experience, that is what a good milky dexter (while still beefy!) can give without a hitch.

[jlmissouri]

I have not had as good of luck, although I have not tried to milk my best cows yet. The first cow I had wasn't friendly enough to milk, although she has since tamed down considerably. My second cow tamed down much quicker and we milked her for a month. I bought her with an adopted calf as she lost her calf a couple weeks before I purchased her. I share milked and brought her in for the night at about 9-10 in the evening and milked about 7-8 in the morning. I then let her calf out of the pen and turned them back out. We got from 1/4 - 1/2 gallon each time. Some reasons for the low production could be the harsh winter weather and not having summer forage. She is also a very small cow, and it was hard for me to milk her as my hand will cover her entire teat. I am hoping for better luck from my other cows.

[carragheendexters]

That is the problem jlmissouri, mostly folks don't select for milk production, as long as there is enough milk for the calf that is all they need. It is only when you start milking your cows that it becomes obvious to you that Dexters may well be promoted as little house cows, but the reality is that many just don't fit the bill. You are not alone in this department, if you read the different chat groups you read too frequently people lamenting the small amount of milk that their Dexter gives and the difficulties of dealing with short teats.
Short teats are such a problem when you hand milk, nothing is worse than trying to milk a cow out with 1 or 2 fingers. It takes forever, and before you know it the letdown is over and the cow hasn't been emptied.
Nice pasture.

[zephyrhillsusan]

I actually prefer milking my cow whose udder doesn't have quite the good suspension that the other one does, because she has longer teats. Also, a nice high, tight udder isn't as easy to milk as one that hangs down a bit.

And of course, there's the fact that you won't really even know what their full potential is till the third lactation. I was quite pleased with the jump from first to second, though.

To me, a big part of milking Dexters is not how MUCH milk I get, but the quality of the experience. I'm on the "Keeping a Family Cow" forum, too, and so many of the dairy breeds have so much trouble with ketosis and milk fever, not to mention needing enormous quantities of grain. I know a man who feeds his Jerseys and Holsteins a full 5 gallon bucket of grain twice a day to get the quantity of milk he gets! One of my Dexters gets 4 lbs. a day and one gets 2. Of course, Dexters can get ketosis and milk fever, too, but so far I've found them to be quite sturdy little milkers and easy to keep. Not to mention their sweet personalities! That's what I mean about the "quality" of the experience--just no way to measure that!

ETA:  Which hasn't stopped us from buying a bull from great milking lines to improve on what we've got!