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Post by rhonda on Jan 13, 2014 19:02:47 GMT -5
After 4 prospective buyers on Selby losing interest because I didn't have A2 testing done, I mailed it in on Friday. This makes me wonder..if everyone is so worked up about A2--maybe I should keep him if he is A2/A2? Thoughts anyone? And is he worthless if he isn't? What are people doing with cattle that aren't A2/A2? Can you sell one? Is this being made into a bigger deal than it is? Rhonda
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Post by Deleted on Jan 13, 2014 19:22:56 GMT -5
We had an enquiry for a homozygenous A2 cow as they were interested in making cheese -it had been a family tradition for a few generations.
They ended up taking home an A2/A1 girl with her steer son (for company) as they were not aware the cow produced 50/50 of each, and these people were happy with that. They also liked the look of her, the mum in the family said the cow reminded her of the house cow she had grown up with.
They also have booked a heifer calf who will be homozygenous A2 from our 2014 calves and are prepared to wait for 'her' to be weaned in 2015.
We also have other homes, two of which have placed a deposit for the same.
It's a big deal in our area of small-acre tree-changers and we are very happy to have the 'pet' market available for those Dexters whose quality is not up there for our breeding program while we work on conformation.
Our entire herd is tested for A2 as part of the testing package by default and so are the calves irrespective of their possible destination. Its what we have chosen to do right from the start. A2 status is a consideration but not over quality.
Cheers Donna
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Post by emsshamrock on Jan 13, 2014 19:41:22 GMT -5
In my opinion, it is a big hype. Yes, A2A2 milk is supposed to be better for you, BUT what good is it if you never intend to milk your Dexters? There are so many high quality Dexters that are A1A1 or A1A2 that people aren't even considering buying because of it. They could have the best lineage behind them and they could be beautiful animals but some perspective buyers won't even bother.
I agree with Donna, it should be a consideration but never over quality.
Emily
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zephyrhillsusan
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Caught Dexteritis in Dec. 2009. Member of this forum since Oct. 2013.
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Post by zephyrhillsusan on Jan 13, 2014 22:27:41 GMT -5
It's easy enough to buy a good cow that is A1/A2 and breed her to an A2 bull until you get an A2 heifer. A2 alone shouldn't be a reason for a breeder refusing to buy a cow, but it could be the deciding factor for people just looking for a family milk cow. Some people know they can drink A2 milk but can't drink A1 milk, so they want a cow whose milk they can drink. NOTE: I am NOT advocating breeding for A2 and throwing everything else out! But there is definitely a need--or in the market sense, a demand--for A2 milk cows. It's coming from many of the same people who want free-range eggs and grass-fed beef because people care about what is healthier for them. The consumer is not going to understand conformation, forage conversion, good feet, good temperament or any of the other things that we breeders care about. It's up to us to breed the best all-round animals we can while still responding to the market demand as long as it doesn't mean compromising our breeding standards. We can get frustrated with the developing demand for A2 . . . or see it as an opportunity. Without getting rid of any of your cows, you can convert your herd to A2 in ten years by using an A2 bull, according to Keith Woodford's book "The Devil in the Milk." Apparently this is more or less what has happened in NZ, if I understand correctly. (This could explain why people are so interested in a bull's A2 status. I know, it's hard lines on those of you who already have A1 or A1/A2 bulls! It's kind of the opposite of the whole PHA thing, excuse me for bringing it up. Keeping a few PHA+ cows to breed has a different effect than using a PHA+ bull on a whole herd. Just as using a PHA+ bull would increase the number of PHA+ animals in your herd, so--in a beneficial way--would using an A2 bull increase your number of A2 animals, all without culling good A1 or A1/A2 cows.) When we bought our first cow, A2 wasn't on my horizon at all. But when we were recently in the market for a bull, it definitely was! So yes, we bought an A2 bull to breed to our A1/A2 and A2 cows. We wanted an A2 milk cow because my granddaughter can't tolerate milk, even organic, and we hope that A2 milk will make a difference for her. My husband also had severe problems with drinking store-bought milk, even organic. We contacted a breeder that we know has A2 animals AND focuses on milk production as well as all-round good breeding when we were looking for a second cow. Our A2 cow is still pregnant and we won't get her milk until April, so we'll have to wait till then to see how it works out for our granddaughter. Happily, my husband is able to drink the A1/A2 milk from the cow I'm milking now. I think the raw, un-homogenized aspect has made the difference for him. He's being very cautious, though, and is not drinking a lot of it at a time, and so far he's had no more stomach aches. Once we have some A2 milk, he's sure going to increase his consumption and see how he does. We test our animals for everything relevant. (We are obligate PHA free.) I don't test for dun if there's no dun in the lineage, but I did test for red on our black heifer out of a black dam because her sire is red (not ours) and I wanted to know what kind of red she carries. I tested her for chondro because he's positive, even though she looks like a non-carrier (she is). I also tested her for polled because both her parents are heterozygous polled. But I'm kind of like Sheri (Red Ridge Farm)--I love genetics! And I want to know!
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Post by ssrdex on Jan 14, 2014 2:56:13 GMT -5
Hi Rhonda. I don't think a bull's A2 status should out way conformational traits. Having said that, I'm not not sure that A2 can't be one of those "quality" traits we look for in a bull, and I don't think I'd use a bull that didn't carry at least 1 Copy of the A2 gene (I think that's the right way to word it). It doesn't seem, at least from my limited experience, to be that difficult to find. I'm working on a deal now with a breeder for a bred heifer that is A1A1, but hopefully will help my herd in others ways that are needed. Ideally, I'd like to see her bred back to an A2A2 bull to assure 1 copy to her offspring, and then go from there. It's a positive trait that brings added value from a specific customer base. I hope things work out for you with Selby, and good luck with your test! At the very least you'll have the info
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Post by carragheendexters on Jan 14, 2014 6:51:53 GMT -5
Hi Rhonda,
A2 carrier status in Dexters is a marketing tool, that it seems only Dexter breeders are using and promoting. You do not see other milking breeds promoting A2 status to the extent that Dexter people do. Is it because breeders are grabbing at anything that they can to promote their cattle? I don't know the answer to that question, but you do not see other breeds pushing A2 to the extent that Dexter breeders do, even in Guernseys being sold as house cows.
Just a question for you to think about. If you weren't worried about Selby's A2 status prior to other people's enquiries and opinions, do you really need to be worried about it now? You weren't worried before, so why let other people's (perhaps new to cattle people, in particular not experienced Dexter people) opinions and expectations worry you now. Don't be influenced by marketing.
Genebo, you seem to have softened on your opinion of A2 milk, compared to the conversation we had some time back. Have you done some reading and investigating on the subject? Something else for you to investigate in relation to the claims on A2 milk, check out latitude affect on diseases, and on the genetic predisposition of diseases, (sometimes called latitude diseases) This was not taken into account in the research studies in A2 milk that have been performed in the Northern hemisphere.
regards Louise
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Post by Deleted on Jan 14, 2014 15:45:17 GMT -5
Oh I forgot to mention, good business is providing your customers with what they feel they need, not always 'what' the seller thinks they should have.
While the A2 status is important for milking, even if customers don't intend to milk, they feel as if they are taking home a special cow if they know the A2 status. So it is up to the breeder to decide to either go with the flow of customer demand or not.
Rhonda you have already experienced the loss of four customers, so maybe in your area the A2 status is also a big deal as it is in our area. It's now up to you whether you stand your ground or meet the market demand by testing and knowing the A2 status of those Dexters you would like to find a home for.
Talking to your potential customers helps as it did in our case, they took home a heterozygous A2 yet they believed they wanted a homozygenous A2, plus they ave provided us with a home for a girl who we may not want in our future breeding program, and yes who will be homozygenous A2
Because we have tested for A2, we were able to explain how lucky we were with our foundation stock where over half are homozygenous A2 as well as three of our bulls. This coming calf season will see us testing A2 status for only a few from 10 expected calves whose existence was based on conformation improvement, but because we will know the A2 status of these calves, one way or another, the three homes are prepared to wait and buy what they believe they want in a Dexter.
Cheers Donna
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Post by carragheendexters on Jan 14, 2014 15:55:41 GMT -5
So many people are "sold" on the book "Devil in the Milk" and base their opinion of A2 on this book. If this is any of you out there you need to do a lot more research on the subject.. How many of you are aware that the author, Dr Keith Woodford has no medical training or qualifications, he is a PhD doctor not a medical doctor. He is a Professor in Agribusiness, and works in the Commerce department of a NZ university. His areas of interest include how agribusiness firms (including farms) and industries can achieve and sustain a competitive advantage. (as stated by the University where he works)
He also declared a conflict of interest at a lecture once, his family members have interest and shares in A2 corp.
He wrote the book on his opinions and what he has read, this does not make him an expert on A2 milk.
regards Louise
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Post by lakeportfarms on Jan 14, 2014 16:08:31 GMT -5
Rhonda, you don't milk your bull of course, but a lot of people are now looking for homozygous A2 in their bulls to increase their odds of having A2/A2 calves or even improve the A1/A1 cows with A1/A2 heifers. While I agree it shouldn't be the determining factor in the selection of a bull, having homozygous A2 heifers is going to increase the number of potential purchasers. Some of our most beautiful cow udders have A1/A1 milk in them. They're not going anywhere, and knowing their status wouldn't have affected my decision to purchase them. I'm retaining a A1/A2 bull out of one of those cows to use as a herd sire due to his other attributes.
Frankly, the A2 debate pales in comparison to the debate of fresh milk vs. store bought milk, and I think a lot of people are happy with that difference alone. You just have to find them.
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zephyrhillsusan
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Caught Dexteritis in Dec. 2009. Member of this forum since Oct. 2013.
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Post by zephyrhillsusan on Jan 14, 2014 23:32:24 GMT -5
Gene, it was interesting to hear more of the story of how A2 testing became available to all of us. The test was already available by the time I sent off testing for our first heifer and I had no idea of all that had gone before. I sent my tail hairs off in blithe ignorance of the momentousness (is that a word?) of what I was doing. Thanks to you and Judy for helping make it possible.
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zephyrhillsusan
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Post by zephyrhillsusan on Jan 14, 2014 23:55:05 GMT -5
Louise, the thing that was interesting to me about Keith Woodford's book is that he compiled the results of quite a few different research projects and laid out the timeline. He is very clear when he is giving his own opinion versus when he is reporting test results. Many of the research projects were originally reported in such technical language that the average layperson would not be able to plow through them or understand them, and he makes them more accessible and comprehensible. He does not claim to be a medical doctor, and the fact that his field is agribusiness does not prevent him from understanding the research that has been done. In fact, my understanding is that his knowledge of agribusiness led him to want to shed light on the politics behind the reporting of A2 research so that the average person without medical or scientific training could have access to the available information and make their own informed decision.
I know that when I'm doing research online, sometimes I come across scientific papers that have been made available to the public. I usually give up trying to read them in frustration over the "medicalese" they are written in--and I have a BS in nursing! It's for this reason that I appreciate what Keith Woodford has done in his book.
On page 208 he writes: "So now it is time for milk consumers to make up their own minds. . . . My hope is that this book might help people make informed decisions. I also hope this book might help people to think about the complex forces that influence the information and choices that are available to us. Are we satisfied with the way the system works? You be the judge."
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Post by dexterfarm on Jan 15, 2014 13:16:33 GMT -5
Rhonda, you don't milk your bull of course, but a lot of people are now looking for homozygous A2 in their bulls to increase their odds of having A2/A2 calves or even improve the A1/A1 cows with A1/A2 heifers. While I agree it shouldn't be the determining factor in the selection of a bull, having homozygous A2 heifers is going to increase the number of potential purchasers. Some of our most beautiful cow udders have A1/A1 milk in them. They're not going anywhere, and knowing their status wouldn't have affected my decision to purchase them. I'm retaining a A1/A2 bull out of one of those cows to use as a herd sire due to his other attributes. Frankly, the A2 debate pales in comparison to the debate of fresh milk vs. store bought milk, and I think a lot of people are happy with that difference alone. You just have to find them. "Some of our most beautiful cow udders have A1/A1 milk in them" I have seen this to but with out haveing a huge pool to look at hard to say if there is a direct relationship or not. But it does make me wonder if A1 is contributing to better udders and more milk production. Maybe we should not be trying to breed out A1 maybe we dont know what all we might be loosing?
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Post by carragheendexters on Jan 15, 2014 20:38:18 GMT -5
Hi Susan,
if you find it a bit hard trying to wade through the scientific papers, try at least to read the abstract and the conclusion, and just skim through the rest. That is where the most important information of a paper is. There has been more research done since the publication of his book, and many papers published, and he neglects to ever reference to them.
Google isn't a great place to find scientific papers on the A2 debate, there are only a few available to the public there. You can use Google Scolar, you will find quite a few more on there, however there are some that you have to pay for subscriptions to, they are not free to view.
As a nurse, do you have access to a CIAP(Clinical Information Access Portal)? This is where you will find all the scientific papers and medical articles and reviews available, and usually they are free. (Agreements (paid by the organisation you work for) between your work's library and publishers)
There is a lot of info out there about A1 vs A2 milk, you just have to be able to find it.
regards louise
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zephyrhillsusan
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Caught Dexteritis in Dec. 2009. Member of this forum since Oct. 2013.
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Post by zephyrhillsusan on Jan 15, 2014 22:27:38 GMT -5
Louise, I'm not working now so I don't have access to CIAP. I lived overseas for too many years and let my license lapse. I still love what nursing used to be, but I wouldn't want to do it nowadays! I prefer to just nurse my animals and my family, when they need it. And try to keep them so they don't!
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Post by J & M Chambers on Jan 15, 2014 23:10:55 GMT -5
On this thread [http://dextercattle.proboards.com/thread/1475/a1-a2-open-question] there is a link to a literature search conducted on the A1 / A2 question a couple of years ago that might be of use in starting your investigations.
Jeff
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