Chondro positive: Is he or isn't he?

[zephyrhillsusan]

FF Lil' Christmas Cash, the sire of Siobhan's non-chondro heifer Macree from last year is also the sire of our new bull calf, Wellington.  Cash is chondro positive--and a very sweet bull.  (It's thanks to Cash that we own a bull today because he changed DH's mind about bulls!)  I don't have enough experience to tell by looking, but Wellie looks very tiny to me compared to my memory of Macree.  He weighed 39 lbs. at 12 hours old.  (I can't lay my hands on the paper where I wrote down his measurements so I can't list them right now.)  Of course we'll pull tail hairs, but I thought it would be fun to play the "is he or isn't he" game with those of you who have more experience.

Here's a photo of Macree on her first day.  Too bad we didn't have a scale then and didn't take measurements.



Here are two photos of Wellington on his second day.  The first shows how small he is; he can almost walk under Siobhan.  The second shows his face.  (I'm pretty sure he's polled, by the way.)




So tell me what you all think, and I'll let you know when the testing comes back.  And by the way, this little guy has got a double whammy in the personality department.  He seems to have inherited a "sweet" gene from each of his parents!

[copperhead]

He doesn't really look like a carrier to me, so I'll vote no
P.J.

[legendrockranch]

The grass is too tall for me to see his legs

Sorry Susan, I'm obsessed with seeing what others pastures look like compared to what we have.
Have you noticed that most of us in Texas drool and comment on how nice other peoples pastures look

I'm bad at guessing games, but I'll say non-carrier

Barb

[wagradexters]

Hi Susan, why does the cow have a circingle and crupper? Do you use her for draft?
Margaret
Au

[carragheendexters]

Hey Susan, can you get a closer photo directly side on, a photo from over the top so you can see from his head to his tail from above, and a front on photo of his head. I like those 3 views before I come to a decision.

As a guess from the photos you have , yes, he is chondro positive.
Look at his ratio from withers to ground : withers to tailhead, he is square. Then compare to Macree, her ratio from withers to ground : withers to tailhead, she is taller than she is long, like a rectangle on its end. (This goes by the way though when you are looking at animals that are genetically short legged without being chondro positive, such as those bred from Woodmagic) Also from the profile photo of his head, his little turned-up nose and dished face, like an Arab. I find this look more pronounced in chondro carriers compared to non-carriers.

[carragheendexters]

Oh Margaret, you have to read Susan's ordeal she has had to answer that one. Siobhan is a self sucker and Susan has gone to great lengths to control it. Have a look at her blog, it is amazing how much effort and thought she has put into it.

[Olga]

I vote non-chondro

[wagradexters]

Thanks Louise, sorry Susan, I will make a point of reading Siobhan's story.
Louise, you saved yourself there in your geometry lesson. I was thinking "those rules don't always apply here" (you would have the same Wm scenario with Justin), but they do still apply, they are just not quite so obvious with predominantly Woodmagic calves.
Margaret
Au

[carragheendexters]

I was thinking of your calves when I wrote that bit Margaret, LOL. They are nearly all low on the leg to start aren't they? so they are still a little taller than they are long? I have seen some photos of calves of other lines also that have that ratio, and they also are non-chondro.

With Justin it depends on the cow he is bred to. Whether she is too long in the leg or not, but he does bring down leg length in his calves.

I can't help but look at animals and compare height to length ratios, it's the dog breeding background in me. It is such a big thing in dogs, ratios of body lengths is what defines many breeds. Not only total lengths but also length of ribcage, length of coupling etc in comparison to height. Many of the dog breed standards have the desired ratio stated within the standard.

[carragheendexters]

Susan, I just went to the ADCA site and had a look at the photo of Christmas Cash. He is a very nice looking bull, he isn't an extreme chondro looking bull at all, more proportionate. Wellington should grow into a nice animal with Cash as his sire, especially if he is so sweet. Shame he is going to be meat. Have to say that the very quiet sweet ones eat well. That quiet temperament makes for great meat.

[lakeportfarms]

Hard to say with the photos Susan, as Louise mentioned there are specific locations to look, but he appears to be non-chondro to me in the first photo just after birth, but has a chondro look to him in the subsequent photos. Of course, we have some very pronounced and easy to identify chondro carriers and I know that there are many out there that are harder to tell. Since his sire is not a severe carrier, I'd say you have a 50/50 chance

With our breedings, there is hardly ever a question since our bull(s) are quite short.

[zephyrhillsusan]

Thank you all for your input! Louise, I jotted down the photos to take, and I'll try to get them this afternoon. Interestingly enough, our April calf was a Woodmagic Hedgehog III baby out of Ebony, who is Siobhan's niece. (We're southern rednecks here, and we like our cattle herd to be rednecks, too!  For you Aussies, the joke is that all rednecks are related because of intermarriage.)    Hans, I had the same thoughts you did--first no, then maybe.  I just didn't know the evaluative tools until you all told me.  

To muddy the waters (or not) here are a couple shots of our Hedgehog heifer Mrs. Tiggywinkle on her first two days of life.  She was very tiny, could walk right under her mama.  She weighed 40 lbs.  Here are her measurements:  Birth weight – 40 lbs.
Birth height – 22” shoulders
23.5” hips
Length (point of shoulder to pin) – 22”
Neck (poll to shoulder blade) ) 9” (? Checked two times)
Back (shoulder blade to tailhead) – 17”
Shoulder width – 5”
Hip width – 6”
Hook to pin length – 7”
Although I learned afterward that I did her shoulder and hip width wrong; I looked down on her and measured the widest spread instead of measuring between the points of the bones.  So disregard those!

[zephyrhillsusan]

Is this photo good enough for a front shot, carragheendexters?



You're not the first person who has complimented Cash, Louise.  The nice thing about a name is that it can always be changed!  Who knows?  If he turns out to be as nice as he could, Wellington could always turn into something else . . .  You all know me, I always have a long string of names thought up long before a calf is born!     If someone wanted to buy him, this little guy could end up being:  (ZH) Cash Pays the Piper (Piper) or Chip in Some Cash (Chip) or Half Crown (if he's positive! Bob for short) or Hit the Jackpot (Jack) or A Million Bucks (Buck) or Midas Touch (Midas) or Red Cent (Red) or Strike It Rich (Rich).  We're in no hurry to castrate him so there's time to decide.

[carragheendexters]

OOps, my fault Susan, it is a great photo of his head, but I wasn't very clear in what I meant. I probably should have said a front shot including his head. If you look front on, non-chondro have that look of both of their front legs "coming out of the one hole" (doggy term for narrow fronted) whereas the chondro pos have wider shoulders and space between their front legs.

I am still leaning towards chondro pos, after looking at his sire. I am thinking that he is chondro positive but not extreme. His testing will probably prove me wrong LOL. But it is fun to have a go at guessing.

[carragheendexters]

Susan, you know I have a really soft spot for the name Cash. I have an old dog whose name is Cash. His registered name is CH.Carragheen Frozen Assets(AI) and his sister's name is CH.Carragheen Kept on Ice(AI). We call her Tina, (not so much thought spent on her name).  We spent ages thinking up names for them to reflect their background. They are coming up 17 years old and still doing quite well for their age. Their sire was a very well known dog in US which we brought his semen over  to Australia.  (Am.Ch. Rohan's Little Lion King SOD)

They are very special dogs to me. They were a "world famous in the Chinese Crested and dog world" litter that we bred. They were the first frozen AI litter of Chinese Cresteds (and Toy dogs) born in Australia and the 2nd in the world. To my knowledge they are still the only frozen AI litter of Chinese Cresteds born in Australia. I can't believe that nobody else has had success in all of those years.

Frozen AI in dogs is much harder to do than in cattle, timing is very critical, the dog has to have progesterone levels done daily for the whole season, sometimes twice daily, and then due to a dogs reproductive anatomy, the semen has to be implanted either surgically or by endoscopy. Because the uterus has been handled, the dog can have cramping and contractions, and all of the semen is expelled. Then the AI has been a waste of time, money and effort. This is where a good vet is important, if they can implant without irritating the uterus you have a much greater chance of success. Our vet was amazing, she has one of the highest success rates. She believes that by never touching the uterus with anything metal is one of the biggest factors.

 Then you wait for 3 weeks to ultrasound to see if you are successful. If not, you then have to wait at least 6 months to try again UGH!

Have you noticed I'm besotted with my dogs as well as my Dexters? hehehe