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Post by RedRidge on Oct 11, 2014 7:48:12 GMT -5
Which accounts for my saying: "I know some of this depends on how much the animal is handled, but it works fairly well. " My cows weren't handled a lot, so it worked for me: everything on the place came from the same handling style.And, since I'd been breeding for a while, and everything was raised on the farm, I was starting from a level playing field. If you are newer, and have animals you've bought from elsewhere, all with diffeent handlging, well, of course you'd have to make allowances. cheers, c. Quite true. Or, if like me, you milk just a few and the rest are fed cookies and friendly but never haltered or milked. That in and of itself creates a lot of diversity even among the cows who are born here. ;-) maybe I'm just weird and all mine not getting treated the same is unusual.
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zephyrhillsusan
member
Caught Dexteritis in Dec. 2009. Member of this forum since Oct. 2013.
Posts: 1,502
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Post by zephyrhillsusan on Oct 11, 2014 8:01:54 GMT -5
Just to broaden the discussion a bit from temperament, for those of you who look for conformation, could you give a list (doesn't have to be prioritized) of the things you look for? Pretend you're looking at a cow or bull to buy and give us the mental checklist you run through?
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Post by RedRidge on Oct 11, 2014 8:18:50 GMT -5
Hmmm... This list is just the beginning and not necessarily in any order, I'm just rattling off the top of my head. But...
The first thing I tend to look for is those common things that I believe tend to be consistent weakness in a lot of the dexters I see. Specifically being base narrow (especially rear narrow), weak rears, bad feet, then move on to bad toplines and/or short backed with no balance. Udder structure also catches my eye quickly if they are in milk for cows and I have a real problem with less than adequate testicular circumference.
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Post by midhilldexters on Oct 11, 2014 16:39:00 GMT -5
As a breed we have been bad on getting anything in diagram form for people to look at, shoulder angles, rear angles etc. We have nothing on scrotum size, no pics on good feet bad feet etc. Yes much is like other breeds, but we should have our own conformation pages for members to study. That said, in no particular order I look at sheaths, depth of body, length of body, width across the back, and feet. Good tail sets. I like to see a calf walk away from me correctly and walk toward me correctly. I like to see decent bone, I don't like rangy. Pictures are great to look at but if the animal falls apart when it moves it's not coming home with me. I'm sure I forgot loads.
Carol K
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Post by carragheendexters on Oct 15, 2014 17:20:08 GMT -5
I'll just add one of my priorities that is high up on my list as well- Fertility. A cow or heifer has to get in calf easily, preferably the first or at the most the 2nd time she is exposed to the bull. Fertility is highly hereditable. If she can't get in calf quickly and easily she goes. None of this vet checks, treatments, hormone therapy, treating cystic ovaries, etc. After all of this intervention and she gets in calf and duly has a heifer, this heifer is highly likely to have the same breeding problems. (yes, cystic ovaries do have a genetic component too) I do know that stress can affect if a cow goes in calf, but Dexters in normal circumstances are not stressed to the level that will affect their fertility. I know it sounds harsh, but a cows first purpose in life is to breed, so this she must do.
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Post by lonecowhand on Oct 15, 2014 17:29:56 GMT -5
I keep hearing about "Bad Feet", can someone explain that please?
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zephyrhillsusan
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Caught Dexteritis in Dec. 2009. Member of this forum since Oct. 2013.
Posts: 1,502
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Post by zephyrhillsusan on Oct 15, 2014 21:23:14 GMT -5
lonecowhand, I'm far from an expert, but I'll try to give you some idea. First is a link to a blog I've run across before, and unfortunately for us Dexter breeders, when I googled "good and bad feet in cattle," this is the fourth site that came up. Let me state up front that I don't like this woman just from her tone in this article! I am not espousing or agreeing with her opinion, just showing you her pictures. This article on conformation in dairy cattle has an illustration of good and bad feet in the middle of page 3. This article on beef cattle conformation has an explanation of the importance of feet and legs with photos of legs and feet on page 10. Hope these help clear things up.
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Post by lakeportfarms on Oct 16, 2014 5:01:32 GMT -5
lonecowhand, I'm far from an expert, but I'll try to give you some idea. First is a link to a blog I've run across before, and unfortunately for us Dexter breeders, when I googled "good and bad feet in cattle," this is the fourth site that came up. Let me state up front that I don't like this woman just from her tone in this article! I am not espousing or agreeing with her opinion, just showing you her pictures. This article on conformation in dairy cattle has an illustration of good and bad feet in the middle of page 3. This article on beef cattle conformation has an explanation of the importance of feet and legs with photos of legs and feet on page 10. Hope these help clear things up. Susan the woman in the blog refers to the AGM in Ft. Wayne a few years ago. And sorry to say I have to agree with her about the quality of many of the Dexters at the sale. Sheril and I were appalled, and said at the time it was a terrible representation of the breed and many of them belonged at the local sale barn with paper bags over their heads. Actually in some instances I thought I was at the local sale barn. Broken udders, bad feet, terrible conformation, and I think some of them didn't even have the dam registered or it said unknown on the sales page!!! How do you not know who the dam is? I think the ADCA took notice and instituted a rule that both parents and the sale animal had to be registered prior to entry in the show for subsequent AGM's. Unfortunately for us the AGM always seems to be held in mid June or a little past, and we can rarely attend because Michigan schools are usually just finishing up the school year with final exams, etc... and sometimes schools will burn up the allotted 6-8 snow days and the year will extend beyond those dates.
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zephyrhillsusan
member
Caught Dexteritis in Dec. 2009. Member of this forum since Oct. 2013.
Posts: 1,502
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Post by zephyrhillsusan on Oct 16, 2014 11:09:27 GMT -5
Hans, ( lakeportfarms) I'm glad to know that she wasn't just spouting off and to know first-hand from someone I trust that the Dexters there really were as she represented them. It's really a shame that seems to have been one of her main experiences with Dexters. I do think she could have approached her disillusionment differently and not just written off an entire breed. I wrote my blog post and started this thread because I know we need to pay attention to breeding--something I've learned in a positive way from people on this board. My interest in horses from a young age has always made me attentive to conformation as well as performance, so it was natural to have that interest when we got into cattle. I didn't start the thread in reaction to anything I've seen, although maybe I haven't seen some of the things others have, either. It's disappointing that breeders would "dump" bad Dexters, especially at a national sale that represents our breed. It would be hoped that bad animals would end up at the butcher (and maybe not even be identified as Dexters!) I guess this just highlights for me the need for EDUCATION! We need to get the membership aware of several ideas: - Every Dexter born is not automatically breeding quality.
- Here are the tools to evaluate whether they are or are not--and get those tools published in the Bulletin and on the website.
- Remember that every Dexter you advertise for sale or breeding is an ambassador for the breed--good or bad.
- Bad examples of the Dexter breed can still make tasty beef.
- A bad cow costs just as much to feed as a good one (and maybe even more!), so breed for good ones and then better ones.
Because Dexters appeal to people like my husband and me who have no experience with cattle at all (and in the case of some, no experience with breeding any animal at all) it is especially incumbent on the ADCA to capitalize on the interest in Dexters to get people informed and excited about good breeding practices. I'm glad for this discussion, because such discussions can be a good educational tool.
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Post by lonecowhand on Oct 20, 2014 11:59:19 GMT -5
Hi Susan, thanks for the links, looks like an angle thing you need to see a lot of to discriminate. It appears that "foot angle" would change with hoof trimming angle. Is that the case, or is it more skeletal from further up the leg? Like if you trimmed to the correct angle would the foot just keep the toe off the ground? Some things like "hocked in" are pretty easy to spot. I agree with you on the negative nelly's blog, she should stick to knitting mittens. Anyone, What are other important conformation considerations?
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zephyrhillsusan
member
Caught Dexteritis in Dec. 2009. Member of this forum since Oct. 2013.
Posts: 1,502
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Post by zephyrhillsusan on Oct 20, 2014 12:33:39 GMT -5
I'm far from an expert on feet and hope someone else will chime in here . . . I think, like with horses, a good trim can help correct some things, but can't really change basic structure. If I understand correctly, the main thing trimming the hooves of cattle does is keeping the toes from being too long and curling. I'm not sure it really goes after changing heels. I think that basic skeletal structure is what's being aimed for in good feet. I can recognize really bad feet much more easily than I can distinguish the niceties of decent versus good.
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Post by Cascade Meadows Farm - Kirk on Oct 28, 2014 21:56:15 GMT -5
Lots of good information above. In addition to all standard conformational features (like strong back, good feet that should apply to all breeds of cattle), I would add these items which I believe should be KEY Dexter traits:
1. Bulls MUST be VERY friendly and VERY manageable. I need to feel safe around them 365 days a year. I need them to be my buddies. I need to be able to simply walk up to them at ANY time and slip a rope halter on them and lead them to where I need them (including on a trailer when the time comes). If I have to carry a stick or a noise-maker or always be worried, then I'll eat the bull before he makes a calf. 2. Cows MUST be sweet and let me work with their newborn calves (tagging/weighing) and not make me feel too unsafe. Also, if a cow doesn't have sweet bull calves, I'll eat the mom. A nice sweet "perfect" cow that creates mean bulls is a problem cow. 3. All MUST come when called and be easily moved through gates.
4. All MUST let me pet them, most must let me hug them, I'll eat the rest (it's called tough love)
5. Compactness (not too leggy), and not too tall is important. 6. Hardy - can thrive AND easily calve WITHOUT shelter (other than trees). Can thrive without chemicals, without vets, without shots.
7. Thrifty - can thrive on forage alone WITHOUT grain supplements.
8. Dual purpose... Thick and beefy and milky enough, but not so milky that they MUST be milked.
9. Easy and trouble free.
PS. While I very much trust my cows with their new calves and trust my bulls, it's important to learn to read them and respond appropriately so you don't accidentally trigger any defense mechanisms (which can be dangerous). I never go marching quickly straight up to the bull's face if he has a wary look in his eye, or if he is in a defensive position (but he better not be in a defensive position more than once in a blue moon). I calmly connect with the new mothers and assure them before I tag their calves (calmly talking to the mom the entire time).
I like to do without de-wormer for very long periods of time to be able to identify (and cull) any animals that have a weakness for parasites. You can probably only do this if you do intensive rotational grazing and don't have any of the really nasty parasites in your area. A vet once said that 10% of the animals carry 90% of the parasites (so why not cull those 10%, so they don't pass their weakness to the next generation).
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Post by RedRidge on Oct 29, 2014 19:11:14 GMT -5
Lots of good information above. In addition to all standard conformational features (like strong back, good feet that should apply to all breeds of cattle), I would add these items which I believe should be KEY Dexter traits: 1. Bulls MUST be VERY friendly and VERY manageable. I need to feel safe around them 365 days a year. I need them to be my buddies. I need to be able to simply walk up to them at ANY time and slip a rope halter on them and lead them to where I need them (including on a trailer when the time comes). If I have to carry a stick or a noise-maker or always be worried, then I'll eat the bull before he makes a calf. 2. Cows MUST be sweet and let me work with their newborn calves (tagging/weighing) and not make me feel too unsafe. Also, if a cow doesn't have sweet bull calves, I'll eat the mom. A nice sweet "perfect" cow that creates mean bulls is a problem cow. 3. All MUST come when called and be easily moved through gates. 4. All MUST let me pet them, most must let me hug them, I'll eat the rest (it's called tough love) 5. Compactness (not too leggy), and not too tall is important. 6. Hardy - can thrive AND easily calve WITHOUT shelter (other than trees). Can thrive without chemicals, without vets, without shots. 7. Thrifty - can thrive on forage alone WITHOUT grain supplements. 8. Dual purpose... Thick and beefy and milky enough, but not so milky that they MUST be milked. 9. Easy and trouble free. PS. While I very much trust my cows with their new calves and trust my bulls, it's important to learn to read them and respond appropriately so you don't accidentally trigger any defense mechanisms (which can be dangerous). I never go marching quickly straight up to the bull's face if he has a wary look in his eye, or if he is in a defensive position (but he better not be in a defensive position more than once in a blue moon). I calmly connect with the new mothers and assure them before I tag their calves (calmly talking to the mom the entire time). I like to do without de-wormer for very long periods of time to be able to identify (and cull) any animals that have a weakness for parasites. You can probably only do this if you do intensive rotational grazing and don't have any of the really nasty parasites in your area. A vet once said that 10% of the animals carry 90% of the parasites (so why not cull those 10%, so they don't pass their weakness to the next generation). See... THIS is what is cool about dexter owners. We all have our preferences and priorities, but differences are fine too. While the first 4 items on Kirks list would be important to him, they are not important to me. Nice Yes, but no reason for culling unless they are flat out mean. I have several I don't pet and hug... ok by me as they are not my milking Dexters and I simply don't care to spend time making them friendly. Their job here is create easy, low input, healthy calves. Not be my pet. For those i intend to milk, that's a different story and a report that is established from a young age. But i have no desire, nor the time, to make all of my livestock into pets. I simply have too many. Different priorities does not make either of us wrong, just different. But I'll take a sound healthy easy cow that I can't touch who won't let me touch her calf for the first week, over a pocket calf that needs more nutrition than the others, or has lost a calf, etc.
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Post by Cascade Meadows Farm - Kirk on Nov 1, 2014 15:04:00 GMT -5
See... THIS is what is cool about dexter owners. We all have our preferences and priorities, but differences are fine too. While the first 4 items on Kirks list would be important to him, they are not important to me. Nice Yes, but no reason for culling unless they are flat out mean. I have several I don't pet and hug... ok by me as they are not my milking Dexters and I simply don't care to spend time making them friendly. Their job here is create easy, low input, healthy calves. Not be my pet. For those i intend to milk, that's a different story and a report that is established from a young age. But i have no desire, nor the time, to make all of my livestock into pets. I simply have too many. Different priorities does not make either of us wrong, just different. But I'll take a sound healthy easy cow that I can't touch who won't let me touch her calf for the first week, over a pocket calf that needs more nutrition than the others, or has lost a calf, etc. I agree that having differences is a good thing, but it's also good to understand the logic behind the differences. My first four items on my list (VERY friendly bulls, sweet safe cows, easily moved through gates, pet-able), are there for VERY practical reasons. I have NO need for pets. We've got 40-50 head of Dexter cattle, 30-60 head of Icelandic sheep, 30-60 head of American Guinea Hogs, 10 farm cats (no mice or rats), and 100 chickens. We've found that having VERY friendly Bulls (and rams and boars and roosters) and having very friendly sweet cows (and ewes and female pigs), makes our job MUCH easier and MUCH faster and MUCH safer. When we started, we found than 10% of the animals were causing 90% of the problems and taking up 90% of the work effort. I remember long ago trying to move cattle from one pasture to another and having a spooky shy one or two that wouldn't go through the gate and her calves wouldn't go through the gate either. It would take me an hour of chasing those spooky ones around to get them through the gate. Out of frustration, I developed a saying "Last one to go through the gate, is the first one to be eaten"... they we're yummy and so were their children... their genes are now extinct. To assure good parentage tracking, I tag the calves within half a day of when they are born. A cow that will let me just walk out there and tag the calf without a fuss, requires only 1 minute of my time and keeps me safe. I used to have a sweet cow that turned into a killer at calving time and required a good deal of time and effort on my part to tag her calves. She was yummy. We have VERY SOFT soil and a carpet of nice grass (and not a speck of sand or gravel) so we have to trim hooves. When I notice someone with overgrown hooves, I slip a rope halter on them and lead them over to my hoof trimming stand and do the job quickly. Having pet-able cows makes this possible and FAST and safer. When buyers want to pick up some stock, I slip a rope halter on the animal, and walk him/her up the driveway and onto the trailer in just a few minutes. In the olden days before much selection for pet-able, manageable animals, it used to be MUCH harder and take 10 times longer. These days, I spend VERY LITTLE time in training them to be pet-able and halter-able... It's mostly genetic selection. Friendly and Pet-able = Faster and Safer But certainly, I agree they also need to be top quality animals in all other areas too (fertility, health, easy keepers, etc.) I have no need for pet-quality animals that are low quality... those would get eaten very first, because I couldn't stand to look at them.
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Post by RedRidge on Nov 1, 2014 15:38:02 GMT -5
Ok I'll clarify... My comments were about friendly, not temperament. These two can be VERY different things. I have a lot more animals than Kirk does, although not as many cattle on this particular farm. I keep two bulls and at least 4-5 rams here not including youngsters. (Along with 5 lgds, 2 herding dogs, and several hundred head of other livestock. Friendly, "can" create problems in bulls and rams. I don't want them so friendly that they take liberty with body space. At the other extreme, you can have cattle that have excellent temperaments but are not friendly simply because of very little human interaction. I am OK with that. Of course the animals we milk are friendly AND have excellent temperaments (when you milk 150/day bad temperaments are never tolerated). So... to clarify, no animal should be bred imo unless it has a good temperament, but friendly is not a requirement here. A good temperament along with excellent herding dogs makes for exceptionally efficient work. Efficiency and safety are the name of the game here as I run this farm alone 90% of the time.
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