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Post by wvdexters on Nov 15, 2014 19:03:26 GMT -5
Carol K - Yes, I would agree that the word "Breed Standard" could hold more weight than "Guidelines" to many people. I believe it was called standards and was later changed to guidelines somewhere along the way. What I would not want to see are for these "Guidelines" to be changed again.
Genetic Diversity is of huge importance to all breeds including the Dexter Breed, and maintaining it should be a priority for the ADCA and to all its members. (Thankfully there is a large and growing interest among our membership to help preserve many of the bloodlines that are disappearing from the herd. )
But diversity within the breed must be kept within the Breed description and guidelines. Diversity is wonderful, but we must keep it within the Breed Guidelines. They are there for a reason, and should be followed to maintain the characteristics of the breed. We have red, black, and dun; No white except on belly and organs of regeneration. This is in the breed description and should be adhered to because they are dexters. Some may want spotted dexters, or even all whites. But should they be, even if born out of fully registered parents? No ....because Dexters are solid colors as in breed guidelines.
The guidelines are also very specific when it comes to size in Dexters, both in height and weight. But while many breeders are working hard to hold to these guidelines, many others are choosing to ignore them and are producing very large animals. Far over the breed descriptions and ADCA guidelines. As for the suggestion to follow the height guidelines in the show ring, I think this would be a great first step. Even if the guidelines are set up for 3 yr olds, it would set an example and remove some of the largest from the competition. The membership would then get to see the animals that fit the breed guidelines winning the shows and as good examples of the breed. The ADCA would then be seen enforcing the guidelines here at least.
As for female genotyping and parental verification, I am all for it personally and have done so with all of our animals. I would like to see some type of "heifer pkg" available in the future. ADCA registration, genotyping, parent verification and a test or two (owner's choice) for one reduced fee. An Obligate Report Program in place. And education for the membership showing the financial advantage the Obligate Reports will bring once their breeding stock is genotyped. I would prefer to see it done this way over just making it a mandatory requirement for registration.
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Post by lakeportfarms on Nov 15, 2014 19:38:11 GMT -5
Diversity has benefits in some cases, but it also has many drawbacks. At some point in time you risk losing the identity of the breed altogether. And frankly, I agree with WVDexters on this (I'm sure you're all surprised here), the Dexter breed has changed a lot from its original description. Without significant diligence or research, owners may end up with a registered Dexter, that when it reaches maturity, has very few of the traits that the Dexter was promoted as and what they were looking for.
As far as the ADCA goes, when you have Regional Directors that write statements like this in the official Dexter Bulletin, this doesn't help the breed either, Barb.
"All kinds of genetic tests for all kinds of animals have entered the field in the past few years. Our Dexters have benefited in that testing for two serious breed problems, pulmonary hypoplasia with anasacra (PHA) and chondrodysplasia (CD), now enables us to circumvent and eventually, one hopes, breed these death dealing defects out of our cattle".
I'm sure some of you approve of this language as it's the same as what I see here on this board all the time.
Basically, there are Dexter owners (and in this case officials within the association) that don't like Dexters. Rather than extolling the virtues of of the breed, they take any and every opportunity to disparage one of the most historical and important traits of the breed as it was founded on. We have many visitors to our farm that are in awe at the little tiny cattle. People who would NEVER consider having a bull on their property look at the 3 year old and 6 year old chondro bull that don't come up to their waist in height, now have an option that they never before thought possible. Like it or not, those new to livestock, are also probably new to AI, which can be difficult to arrange. If you are looking for a reason why there are so many who get in and then get out in a short period of time, I'd lay odds that many encountered these very problems in getting their heifers or cows bred. And then it just becomes a hay eating, non-productive, pasture ornament and it's time for the freezer or to be sold. Perhaps their breeder never made the chondro bull an option because they are "lethal" after all..lol. Each year we have about a half dozen of these people, brand new to cattle, that have determined that they will start their herds with the shorty bull and the long legged cow because that is what works for them for their farm, their goals, and in many cases their families with younger children. And in almost every case, we'll get a follow up e mail from them within a month or two describing how they love their bull as much or more than their heifer or cow. Their friends stop by and are amazed at the size and temperament, and start to think that they want one as well. Frankly, if you're going to breed cattle, and you can't handle the shorty bull that comes up to your waist, you should get out, because you won't be able to handle a 2 year old 700 lb. long legged steer that looks you in the eye.
When you disparage the horns, you disparage the Dexter breed. If you have a homozygous polled bull (and I won't get into the issues regarding that here) you will be able to produce polled calves, but THESE calves may not have the ability to produce entirely polled herds. So how do you explain that to prospective purchasers, who may end up with horned calves themselves? And then they're not prepared for the dehorning process, or they have it set in their mind that dehorning is cruel, so they get out of Dexters and into a breed like Lowline Angus, or Belted Galloways, or polled Miniature Herefords. After all, if you are sold on the concept that horns are undesirable, and you're getting horned calves, why would you stay with the breed, especially when you are starting to have Dexters that exceed the breed guidelines and are larger than some of these other competing breeds. We have had Lowlines, and I could go up to them, pet them, milk them, halter them, feed them treats, and quite frankly they produced fast growing beefy calves better than the Dexters do. We still have a Miniature Hereford on our farm. We've discussed selling her, but every year she produces a great little calf. She's an easy keeper, and no larger than our long legged Dexters, most of whom are at the lower end of the guidelines.
In conclusion, when you disparage the chondro carrier, you disparage the ONE trait that is THE most unique and defining characteristic, and foundation of the breed. Other traits that the Dexter lays claim to can be more reliably reproduced in other breeds like the Lowline, Jersey, Miniature Hereford, Belted Galloway, etc.. which is why people may leave the Dexter breed. The advantage the Dexter may have over these other breeds is the "heritage" status. The name and reputation will only go so far if the experience doesn't meet the expectation.
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Post by legendrockranch on Nov 15, 2014 20:06:55 GMT -5
As far as the ADCA goes, when you have Regional Directors that write statements like this in the official Dexter Bulletin, this doesn't help the breed either, Barb. "All kinds of genetic tests for all kinds of animals have entered the field in the past few years. Our Dexters have benefited in that testing for two serious breed problems, pulmonary hypoplasia with anasacra (PHA) and chondrodysplasia (CD), now enables us to circumvent and eventually, one hopes, breed these death dealing defects out of our cattle".I totally agree, comments like that should have never been made by a director who is supposed to be impartial. Barb
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zephyrhillsusan
member
Caught Dexteritis in Dec. 2009. Member of this forum since Oct. 2013.
Posts: 1,502
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Post by zephyrhillsusan on Nov 15, 2014 23:18:02 GMT -5
I agree, and--for the record--I wrote that director an email (copied to the ADCA president) detailing all the problems I had with her disparaging language toward chondro carriers and A2. The ADCA accepts chondro carriers for registration on an equal footing with non-chondro carriers, and a director has no business making such statements. If she wanted to educate people about A2, she could have found a much better way to do so. What she wrote sounded like a rant. Her whole piece read like an extremely slanted editorial, neither informative nor educational, which it seems to me a regional director's official communications should be. If I lived in her region and had been interested in Dexters, her attitude would have completely turned me off.
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Post by midhilldexters on Nov 16, 2014 7:28:56 GMT -5
The guidelines are also very specific when it comes to size in Dexters, both in height and weight. But while many breeders are working hard to hold to these guidelines, many others are choosing to ignore them and are producing very large animals. Far over the breed descriptions and ADCA guidelines...... Wait a minute, didn't you use a AI bull recently whose height is over the breed standard? And you kept the resulting calf and will use him as a bull??? Don't get me wrong, I'm not against your breeding program or the bull you chose, but it goes totally against what you have written. Carol K
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Post by cddexter on Nov 16, 2014 8:34:16 GMT -5
Not again...
The only scientific study done on height showed a difference of 6 and 8 inches. I always thought it was more along 4-4.5 and 6-6.5. I made a presentation to the AGM in CO about 8-10 years ago and had evefryone in agreement: let's start with the best info we have, and we can tweak the numbers later, as we gain stats, but have a two height system. One member who is known for her obsession with accurate facts said, oh no, we can't do that. we don't know for sure what the numbers are. I'll collect data and when we have enough (in her opinion), then we can change the guideline. Everyone backed off, and the opportunity was lost. Remmber how many years ago i said that was, well here we are and she can't get enough stats, so nothing has been done.
I'll support Carol K here: even if the numbers aren't exactly correct, pick one type, and add 4 or 5 inches (or subtract, depending on which one you pick), and those will be the guideline. If we wait for the stats (and the member), I'll be long dead and there still won't be anything done.
I propose
dwarf heights should be between 36 and 41 inches (this allows for the truly huge Dexter genetics that are out there LEFT OVER FROM THE 50S AND 60S AND 70S, WHEN IT WAS COMMON TO HAVE 45-50 INCH NONDWARF COWS that were part of what Judy calls the foundation stock here (hear that, wvdexters?)
non-dwarf heights should be between 39 and 44 inches (that prevents TINY cows when the dwarf gene gets added, but encourages the nons breeders to breed away from the taller genetics early Dexters carried).
They don't match the 4.5 or 6 inches for cows, etc, but they're pretty representative, and would give us a place to start. I know not all Dexters are tested and there will be mistakes but it will be a huge improvement on what we have now.
c.
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Post by RedRidge on Nov 16, 2014 8:43:45 GMT -5
I'm gonna open this can of worms and ask a question I've wondered about. Since I know very few by photo, hopefully this won't offend anyone (since I have no clue who the winners were), but...
Haven't many of the winners of the AGM over the least 10 years been way over the height recommendations listed above? (which I agree with btw)
What good are recommendations or even standards if those who do not abide by them are rewarded?
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Post by lakeportfarms on Nov 16, 2014 8:54:09 GMT -5
The guidelines are also very specific when it comes to size in Dexters, both in height and weight. But while many breeders are working hard to hold to these guidelines, many others are choosing to ignore them and are producing very large animals. Far over the breed descriptions and ADCA guidelines...... Wait a minute, didn't you use a AI bull recently whose height is over the breed standard? And you kept the resulting calf and will use him as a bull??? Don't get me wrong, I'm not against your breeding program or the bull you chose, but it goes totally against what you have written. Carol K Carol K, I think the AI bull she used was measured at 7 years of age. There is no doubt a bull will grow from the "official" age of measurement of 3 years of age. In this case 4" over 4 years? Entirely possible and probable, that doesn't mean he's over breed guidelines. There isn't much you can do when you collect an older bull for AI if he is older than 3 years, for example Mike was 39" at 9 years when we had him collected, and I measured him well. I never got an accurate measurement of him when we purchased him at 4 years, but he was certainly smaller, so should I have extrapolated that number to what I thought he was at 3 or 4? What I do object to is the measurements of some AI bulls that are taken at 22-24 months of age, showing a bull that falls within the guidelines, but you know he's going to be taller at 3 years and it's not a true measurement. It seems intended to deceive. They should wait another year and then revise the AI information when it is available. Adult size, and finding a way to get your heifer or cow bred are I think the biggest factors in the longevity of a breeder. The third factor is going to be the available land they have for their herd. If they have sufficient pasture, they'll tend to stay in it longer. If they're feeding hay all but 2-3 months of the year, it's going to be less likely they'll stay in it. How much pasture do you have is one of the first questions we'll ask a potential owner.
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Post by lakeportfarms on Nov 16, 2014 9:01:27 GMT -5
I'm gonna open this can of worms and ask a question I've wondered about. Since I know very few by photo, hopefully this won't offend anyone (since I have no clue who the winners were), but... Haven't many of the winners of the AGM over the least 10 years been way over the height recommendations listed above? (which I agree with btw) What good are recommendations or even standards if those who do not abide by them are rewarded? Sheri, for mature bulls, most definitely. For cows, a little less so, because the winners tend to be the dwarfs. I'd like to see more emphasis placed on things other than conditioning and size.
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Post by midhilldexters on Nov 16, 2014 9:06:08 GMT -5
Sheri, yes you are correct, many have been over the height guideline, and probably weight also. However, one cannot stop someone from showing if all they have is a guideline to adhere to. If as a breed we could agree on heights for carriers and heights for non carriers and have them as a standard, then we can enforce.
Carol K
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Post by RedRidge on Nov 16, 2014 9:21:40 GMT -5
And as long as those who aren't within the guidelines are rewarded we have 2 problems... Those who are within the guidelines are discouraged from competing, and those who are not will never vote for changing a guideline to a standard. This goes back to making sure the judges are educated about the guidelines - yet another hurdle to overcome.
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Post by wvdexters on Nov 16, 2014 10:26:41 GMT -5
Very good point Carol K. I am glad you brought this up. It fits exactly what we are talking about here; on many points. Let me share our breeding plans with you.
We are part of a small group of breeders working to preserve Traditional American Red, an important part of the Dexter Breed in this country. And one that had all but disappeared in the present day herd. Part of the "maintaining genetic diversity" that we are talking about here and that is so essential to the Dexter Breed as a whole.
Although over the height guidelines, Big Mac was chosen because he was a Traditional Bull and carried the red we are trying to preserve. We AI'd him to Caitlyn (our traditionally bred cow) who also carried Am Red in the hopes of producing another carrier or possibly even a red.
As for the size, we are working on that. Caitlyn (dam) is a very small carrier and is sired by Brenn of Paradise. His line has produced many small non-carriers "true shorts" and it is our hope that Macklynn will follow along this line. We have also purchased 2 beautiful heifers from Gene Bowan for breeding partners. Triu Inion of Paradise (granddaughter of Mrs. Fermoy and carries red) and Vera J of Paradise (line bred by Brenn, a very lovely, very petite little heifer from the Windridge line. Both are quite small non-carriers with excellent conformation and temperaments, And will reinforce the small size we are breeding for here at Knobley.
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Post by kansasdexters on Nov 16, 2014 11:29:53 GMT -5
Okay, here's what you all have come up with so far, to help assure the future of the Dexter breed, and a better chance of success for future owners and breeders:
1. Improve the educational opportunities for all Dexter breeders and owners.
2. Make Dexter breed information more easily accessible and available.
3. Adopt breed standards that are enforced at all ADCA sponsored shows and exhibits.
4. Assure pedigree integrity by requiring full parentage qualification prior to registration of breeding stock.
Anything else to add to this list?
Patti
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Post by midhilldexters on Nov 16, 2014 11:34:22 GMT -5
Wv dexters, you chose color over size, ok, I think many of us have had to make similar choices. However you have to afford other breeders similar choices then without condemning them for height. I wish you luck with your breeding plan.
Carol K
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Post by RedRidge on Nov 16, 2014 11:45:17 GMT -5
Okay, here's what you all have come up with so far, to help assure the future of the Dexter breed, and a better chance of success for future owners and breeders: 1. Improve the educational opportunities for all Dexter breeders and owners. 2. Make Dexter breed information more easily accessible and available. 3. Adopt breed standards that are enforced at all ADCA sponsored shows and exhibits. 4. Assure pedigree integrity by requiring full parentage qualification prior to registration of breeding stock. Anything else to add to this list? Patti Frankly is be afraid to mention anything else. LOL. Just accomplishing the four things on that punch list would make an enormous impact. ;-)
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