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Post by kansasdexters on Jun 27, 2016 17:44:25 GMT -5
Kim,
If these people don't have the integrity and sportsmanship to lose in a fair and honest competition with grace and dignity, it won't matter what anyone says. They feel entitled, and they really don't care what anyone else thinks. It's a crying shame, but it is, what it is. If the ADCA Board fails to act appropriately, to do what is right and just, then shame on them.
Patti
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Post by Olga on Jun 27, 2016 21:45:18 GMT -5
Great discussion, y'all!
As a fallow up question on feet, how many breeders do you know who trim hooves? Do they do it routinely or for shows only? May be I am spoiled by AR pastures that grow fine rocks, but what would be the reasons for a young animal to need a hoof trim?
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Post by cddexter on Jun 28, 2016 8:47:17 GMT -5
Olga, some Dexters come with genetically 'flat' feet. Actually it was a very shallow heel which caused the toes to grow out, not down. This was a big fault on early Woodmagic imports, along with very hairy udders. A lot of this has been fixed in the intervening 35 years. Soft pasture with no rocks or hard places doesn't wear down the feet, or small pastures where the animal isn't traveling far doesn't wear down the feet either, so even good feet can get toes that end up long. Long toes causes the posture to change for the worse. Ergo, trim. I can't echo Patti's statement strongly enough! It all comes down to integrity. Want to win? Make sure the judge is someone you know and are friends with. I've seen it over and over. I think Patti should be commended for her excellent job, and for the smarts to know how it should be done--and do it that way, often in spite of politics. All I have left is memories, so here's another one: When I set up the AGM at the Calgary Stampede, I was both organizer and competitor. I asked around and found an Angus breeder who was a recognized international judge who'd been interested in Dexters and saw a lot of them in England. Didn't know him from a hole in the ground. I got someone else to contact him and make arrangements, so it was all at arm's length. Same thing with Nancy. Absolutely unethical for her to meet and greet owners of show cattle prior to judging. Trouble is some people don't understand ethics, and figure all's fair in love, war, and showing, especially if it will help you win. Some time, remind me to tell you the saga of trying to select a Talisman winner one year when the rules specifically said it was to be an at-arms-length choice, outside Board politics, and the Pres of the day insisted on getting her sticky fingers on the process and pretty well ordered us to do it her way. I got around her, but it wasn't all beer and skittles. Made another life-long enemy, of course. Oh, yes, and she changed the rules for the following year, which the BoD passed. Game over. Hey, Barb, if I write that book this winter, you and Patti 'll have to edit it for me to remove all the 'expose' stuff (can't figure out how to get that French acute accent to print). I've never learned how to be righteous without offending. Meanwhile, before I get accused of hijacking the thread, back to heights: I'm still passionately devoted to having the breed associations get past the politics and be accountable for what we have and to deal with the height issue fairly. Probably not in this lifetime, but one can always hope. I tried to get an article published in the newsletter but it got passed to the BoD for review (another issue) and it was turned down as not suitable. Off topic: new house at roof truss stage, lockup within two weeks. Getting there... cheers, c.
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Post by kansasdexters on Jun 28, 2016 17:34:03 GMT -5
The best reason to trim hooves is to do it if and/or when they need it. Any time that hooves are allowed to grow out abnormally long, there is a potential issue for possible injury to the cow, due to poor footing and hampered movement. If the hooves on an animal don't look right, then have them trimmed to proper proportions for the comfort and well being of the animal.
Patti
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Post by Olga on Jun 28, 2016 21:41:49 GMT -5
Thank you for the answers! I never thought that all these rocks were a blessing where feet are concerned, lol. It really irks me, C., about your article being turned down by the B.O.D. Let us know if you publish it elsewhere. I would love to read it.
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Post by cddexter on Jun 29, 2016 10:49:58 GMT -5
have to access the old dakodan site, Olga. Or, as Barb says, wait for the book. me.
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Post by legendrockranch on Jun 29, 2016 16:03:28 GMT -5
Still waiting... Anticipation comes to mind. Barb
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Post by cddexter on Jun 30, 2016 12:30:03 GMT -5
house to finish, university program to finish (one course to go!), unpack 8,000 lbs of 'stuff' and find a place for it, THEN I start on the dreaded book.
I see the ADCA has changed it's height standard. It's now broad enough to include most everything. Imagine a breed where a 12" difference in cow height and a 14" difference in bull height is the guideline, and that just covers the majority. I guess that's a way to get around discussing chondro. The more things change the more they stay the same. I guess that's why the scientific explanations that used to be available are now tucked away and can only be found by sleuthing. Still that old 'it's okay to do it, but not okay to talk about it'.
sigh.
c.
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Post by kansasdexters on Jun 30, 2016 13:18:50 GMT -5
c.
The size guideline, as shown in the ADCA breed description, is now a much more direct explanation of the range in size that is typically seen in the Dexter breed in the USA. Here is what the updated breed description says about size:
Size: Typical height ranges in Dexters can vary between and within the populations of carriers and non-carriers of chondrodysplasia. Both carriers and non-carriers are of equal merit. Because the ADCA does not encourage breeding especially small or especially large Dexters, breeding programs that consistently push animals to extremes in either size direction are not encouraged.
Cows: Typical range in height is 34 - 46 inches, with a majority in the range of 36-42 inches, measured at the hip.
Bulls: Typical range in height is 36 - 50 inches, with a majority in the range of 38-44 inches, measured at the hip.
It's supposed to be a guideline for Dexter breeders, as well as being an accurate description of the breed, as it is found in the United States. I believe the updated wording in the breed description accomplishes this.
Patti
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Post by cddexter on Jun 30, 2016 16:59:23 GMT -5
Patti, thanks. That's the same info I got off the ADCA website, too. Yes it is more realistic. That's a good thing. I know we'll never agree on this, because I struggle with the ethics of breeding for a lethal genetic defect, while you keep both types, just manage them. I suppose as long as there is the 'oh, it's sooo cute' faction, dwarfism will prevail. I always said if I could breed animals that looked dwarf without the gene, I'd be happy. Well...I guess I'm happy, because I was on the way, and had a number of cattle that met that goal. And despite the pro-d's saying that without the dwarf gene the cattle were just cattle, my girls retained the personality and friendliness, as well as being truly dual purpose, just without hiding behind a lethal gene.
I'm just not sure how the current crop of owners feel about selecting a breed for its small size, and then have 46"--or bigger--cows, and have the assn. tell them it's in the genes. I've known Angus smaller than that. Maybe in another 30 years, the height will have been bred out, so everything is small. Wouldn't that be nice. Oh, and yes, I'm to blame for having the name changed from standard to guideline, for the very reason you point out. Mind, that was probably at least 20 years ago, good to see my rationale is still valid. cheers, c.
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hoperefuge
member
Milking our Dexters in the mountains of KY since 2007
Posts: 101
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Post by hoperefuge on Jun 30, 2016 17:08:18 GMT -5
Thank you, Patti. This was not taken lightly, c. We struggled with how to make the height guideline more accurate. I'm sorry that you feel the need to be sour grapes because your idea is too complicated & impractical for something like this. Kim
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Post by cddexter on Jun 30, 2016 22:51:59 GMT -5
Neither complicated nor impractical, Kim. And I suppose it WILL sound like sour grapes if I stop to compare how long the two of us have struggled with the problem. At least the ADCA has moved toward something that is an improvement over what we had before. For that, since I take it from your post you had some involvement, thank you. Cheers, c.
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Post by midhilldexters on Jul 1, 2016 6:28:49 GMT -5
I guess my thought on seeing 50" in print would be that people take it as being the norm and thus ok. Before you know it 50" is the norm and people breed for it. Remember when Lochinvars height was published? Everyone was aghast. Not so much now I guess.
Carol K
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Post by kansasdexters on Jul 1, 2016 7:06:38 GMT -5
Carol K -
I don't see how anyone would consider the upper end of a size range as "the norm". Neither would they consider the lower end of the size range as "the norm". Lochinvar was fully mature (over 7 years old) when he was measured and shown as being 50 inch hip height. Most bulls never reach that age or their full mature size, so people don't even know what they are breeding with in regard to size genetics. By the way, I have a Lochinvar daughter, a tested Chondro Non-carrier, and she matured at 42-inches hip height. Her full sister, matured at 45-inch hip height. They have identical pedigrees and they grew up in the same environment, and yet there is a 3 inch difference in their mature stature. So Lochinvar doesn't always produce an offspring that is outside of the preferred size range, he isn't homozygous for "too big".
Patti
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Post by midhilldexters on Jul 1, 2016 15:05:55 GMT -5
I guess time will tell Patti. Right now I would say animals are getting taller, just my viewpoint, and putting 50" in print kind of reads like it's ok. My first calf was a Lochinvar daughter, she was a giraffe. She was 47" when she was beefed.
Carol
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