Some thoughts on judging and height.

[Olga]

As some of you know, our current bull Belmont is a short non-carrier type. As his 3 outstanding heifers grew this year and as I selected one to take to the AGM, I pondered: will the shorter stature be a hindrance in the show ring? My bet was on "yes".

I haven't been to a Dexter show in a couple of years. But I am familiar with the general tendency of judges to place "bigger" first. In the younger classes you see this tendency in the higher placings of carrier animals, as they are more mature looking and appear to be heavier muscled and deeper bodied. At this year's AGM this wasn't apparent, possibly due to a lower proportion of carrier animals than what I've seen before. In the young classes (up to 2 years), older animals in each class tend to place better. Not surprisingly, fed-for-show animals also tend to do better.

Once again I saw the judge not pay enough attention to the feet. If Dexters are supposed to walk on those feet for 20 years they better be good ones! And no, I don't want an animal that needs its feet trimmed - they are supposed to be low maintenance, right?

The other thought came to me when I was looking at bulls and bull calves. I realize that height "standard" is not possible right now - there are no large scale studies to back up and justified any sort of limitation on either end. I understand that there may need to be 2 standards depending on the animal's carrier status. Bear with me...

When it comes to PHA, we have agreed that it shouldn't be perpetuated. Thus we have agreed that it's for the best not to use PHA-positive bulls. So...

Pro-carrier or not, we agree (I hope) that Dexters need to have an identity as a small cow. When they are as big as an Angus, that identity is lost. We all have seen the too-tall too-leggy Dexters out there. And since the bull is "half the herd" the easiest way to ensure the smaller stature of the breed would be by keeping the bulls below a certain maximum height.

But how to determine that? Where to start? How to enforce?

Your thoughts?

[tonhou]

Hi Olga ..
Where I come from down-under, the bull size is not necessarily a good guide for the size of the female offspring. We have been using a mature bull 120 cm+ (48 inches+) at the hip and his female progeny is not tall. Frame scores might be useful in assessing height of younger bulls, though my observation is that they do not necessarily scale as the frame scores suggest.

--Tony

[Olga]

Very interesting information, thank you, Tony. What is an average Dexter herd size in NZ? Here is the US the majority of Dexter herds are small and it is rare to see many same-age offspring of the same sire to make any meaningful conclusions.

[hoperefuge]

Unless you're going to have a measuring stick at the show & measure the height of every single animal, and have some logarithm for figuring out how tall the still-growing youngsters will be at maturity (which won't ever work anyway), it's just not really going to be possible to enforce a height standard.  That's why we have breed guidelines, and not standards.  We can ask people to breed within the stated height range, but we can't force them to.

Beyond that, here are some of my thoughts from this AGM.  I think we had two of the best judges I've ever seen, with this being the 4th AGM I've attended.  I heard a lot of others also saying they thought these were some of the best judges ever.  They knew their stuff, judged the animals fairly as DUAL-PURPOSE based on their conformation, and did an excellent job explaining what they saw in each animal.  And though the judge for the adult show occasionally stated that he personally would prefer more stature on an animal, I didn't feel like that greatly affected his placement of those animals...some of them still placed pretty high.

None of the bulls there seemed to me to be too-tall or too-leggy, and certainly none were as big as an Angus.  And I'm not sure how you could fairly judge on feet, because some people trim for a show & some don't.

In regards to chondro, these judges understood what dual-purpose is, and so were not automatically placing the beefier looking chondro-carriers at the top, like often happens.  What I heard, especially from the youth judge, was that he didn't seem to like the front end/shoulder structure on the carriers, and the way they moved.  It all came down to conformation, which is as it should be.

Kim

[Olga]

Speaking of judges comments, wouldn't it be great if we had voice to text! It was hard to understand in some areas of the barn, including the arena.

[zephyrhillsusan]

Olga, at the AGMs I've been to it's always been hard to hear the judges' comments. It would be so educational for those in the stand to be able to hear!

[gladhourfarm]

I am so interested to hear your comments on the AGM. I didn't get to go this time. Always eager to hear many things about how it went. Who WERE the judges? I have particularly enjoyed AGM shows when Nancy Edge and when Gearld Fry judged Dexters at former AGMs for many of the reasons like yours--very good explanations, looked beyond condition and grooming to talk about structure, knew DEXTERS and not just "cattle," etc. I liked best of all when Nancy Edge judged the video show and was able to stop and start and replay portions relative to her comments. I wish video shows could be reinstituted...as I've said before.

Re your original topic of height, Olga...I think it may be a bit like some info I read about purebred dog breed I had, and observe in people, too. Some individuals (and perhaps some lines?) tend to spurt in growth and or gain their height early and gradually add their other dimensions and, as Beryl Rutherford once said to me, "grow into" or "sink into" their legs. Others have a more steady form of growth so that they do not express a gangly stage much ever. I remember a particular bull of my breeding which I took to a show along with age-mates. He finished dead last in the class as a youngster. However, at around three years old I still had him and had a "walk around" gathering with two aAa analysts as the featured educators. He was one of the animals I asked them to "put numbers on." They said they would, but that he was so well-balanced it would be hard to discern exactly which strengths to designate as the first "number" and so on. That can teach us to look at bloodlines and expected traits as well as individual looks when deciding the fate of a young male.

I believe also that when a person lets Dexters express their natural ability to cope with the weather (thus nutritional) conditions that a season deals them on pasture (instead of feeding for show or gain or convention), as homesteaders love about them, their maturation may reflect those conditions they faced. So on poorer summers' pastures, they may tend to grow slower. Esp if the owner makes pasture forage the Dexter diet.

Remember that one of the strengths of Dexter breed (and how we got such, by selection) is its ability to survive with what its humans can do for it even if they themselves were/are poor and couldn't supplement nature a lot.

[hoperefuge]

The judges this year were Dr. Scott Schaake for the Adult show, and Brady Jensen for the Youth & Showmanship.  They are coach & assistant coach for the KSU Livestock Judging Team, so VERY qualified, and it showed.

I have been told that there has been a big, negative reaction to these judges from a few people....as in they don't want them ever judging Dexters again.  I find that very disheartening, because these guys were judging based on conformation, which SHOULD be the entire point, as I mentioned before.  Excellent judges shouldn't be expected to overlook conformational flaws just because an animal is a chondro-carrier, or bigger, or beefier or whatever the status quo has been in the past.  I personally feel that more judging like this year's could move our breed & our Association forward into being even better.

For anybody who was at the AGM....if you appreciated this breath of fresh air in the judging as much as I did & would like to see more of it, please, please, PLEASE make that known to your Regional Director and to the Show & Sale Committee.  If enough people don't speak up, I'm afraid we'll end up being reverted to the good ol' status quo...which I have heard plenty of people complaining about over the years.  I think we deserve better.

Thanks!
Kim

Sorry if that's a hijack, Olga.

[kansasdexters]

Kim

I didn't hear a single negative comment about the judges after the show. Everyone that spoke to me about them, had very positive things to say. I was responsible for finding these judges and extensively reviewed their references and experience, prior to reserving their services, way back in November-December 2015. These guys are in demand as livestock judges in Kansas as well as in other states, and we were very lucky to get them for the ADCA show. Dr. Schaake had previously judged Dexter cattle shows in Calgary, Canada and in Florida -- he's quite knowledgeable about the Dexter breed. Brady Jensen was great with the youth classes, he was very positive, appreciative, and encouraging with all of the youth exhibitors. What's not to love about these two??

Patti

[hoperefuge]

And I sincerely hope you are given the freedom to retain their services again kansasdexters!

Kim

[cddexter]

And the year that Nancy was invited back to Fort Wayne, substantiated gossip related that a certain nearby breeder who's dominated the shows with the same two or three animals tried her damnedest to cancel Nancy and have a favorite judge that likes her animals replace Nancy. Lots of acrimony. I'm with having good judges who understand dwarfism (and not animals that look beefier) and can see the animal underneath. Nancy did that very well. Of course, it helps she's an international judge of all breeds, accredited by the NZ Royal Show Society--judges in NZ must take a special course, and 'apprentice' for two years under two experienced judges and be judged themselves before they qualify. Makes a difference!!

My only regret about retiring after almost 35 years was I couldn't get the ADCA to do something about distinguishing heights between dwarf and nons. As it stands, both types are penalized because they cannot fit inside the scale, one too big, the other too small. That's because something that's a dwarf at 42 inches will likely be Angus sized if you take the dwarfism away (I know, Patti, you have a mother/daughter combo that are only two inches apart--but that's not the norm.)

And, Star, I remember that...it was the first time Nancy was here, it was a young bull, and she showed how when he turned a corner his leg and hoof were at a weird angle, it only became apparent when he turned.


C.

[hoperefuge]

Aahhh, the judge from NZ...I didn't remember her name was Nancy.  Yes,  I saw her at Fort Wayne, and she WAS very good also!

Kim

[kansasdexters]

Kim -

I really believe that it's important for the judges to be contacted and selected by an ADCA member or members that are not exhibiting at the show. It is a direct conflict of interest for one of the exhibitors to be in private communication with the judges, or be responsible for recommending or hiring the judges. There should be no private conversations between any of the judges and any of the exhibitors, prior to judging the event, in my opinion. Since the Show & Sale Committee members are all exhibitors at these shows, they should excuse themselves (due to conflict of interest) from any hiring decisions made by the Board concerning the show judges.


Patti

[hoperefuge]

I ABSOLUTELY agree, Patti!

But I still think it would be good for the committee to hear from people who appreciated the judging.  Just so they know.

Kim

[legendrockranch]

I remember meeting Nancy along with C at one of the AGM many years back. As they both approached the first question out of c's mouth was are you showing. Of coarse what she was doing was keeping Nancy away from any exhibitors. I was not showing, so after a few minutes of introductions, c quickly moved Nancy away from other people they might accidentally run into.

Barb