I want to gripe about PHA

[copperhead]

I just turned down one of the best looking, wonderfully bred bulls, Ive seen. He hasn't been tested for PHA and his sire is a carrier, so he has a good chance of being one. Two years ago, I wouldn't have ask about this disease and would have bought him, in a heartbeat. I wonder how serious really, is this condition? It it so bad that good bulls have to be turned down ?? I'm sure I know the answer, but I really hate not owning such a nice animal, over a disease I can't see.
P.J.

[kansasdexters]

P.J.

Why would you turn him down without testing him? If his sire is a PHA-carrier, then he has a 50% chance of being a PHA non-carrier and a 50% chance of being a PHA-carrier. So he has just as good a chance of being a non-carrier as he does of being a carrier. For $28 you can find out what his PHA status is in less than 3 weeks time. Why gripe? Just do the test if you want the bull and want to assure yourself that he is a PHA non-carrier.

PHA in an affected calf is fatal and having an affected calf can be potentially fatal to the dam -- that's how serious it can be when the calf inherits a PHA gene from both its sire and dam. But there is absolutely no need or reason to breed a PHA-carrier to another PHA-carrier because the test is economical and easy to do.

If you find a bull that is one of the best looking, wonderfully bred bulls that you've seen, isn't he worth $28 to see if he is PHA-free??

Patti

[otf]

Why hasn't the seller had the bull tested?

[ctownson]

I would test him and/or make the purchase contingent on a negative pha result. Offer to pay for the test if you have to. It is certainly not hard to pull a few tail hairs and send them off.

[copperhead]

thanks everyone..........good ideas and veiws from all of you. Otf, I don't know why he hasn't been tested. Genbo, I know a carrier can be used, but I sell almost all of my heifers and I don't want to have to butcher half of them because of PHA. Thats why I'm wanting to gripe, I know that testing and culling is the cost of the disease.
P.J.

[otf]

P.J., I understand your problem. We have one absolutely lovely yearling heifer that carries PHA, that I would sell as a beef animal except all the people who have inquired want to breed her. I don't trust them. I'll keep her here instead and breed her and test any offspring. Her temperament's too good to go to waste.

It just seems to me that someone who is selling an animal should be responsible for testing it. That way there's no question either way.

[Star Creek Dexters]

PJ,
is the owner not open to testing for you? We bought a heifer a while back that was from an untested herd. I spoke with the owner about it and she was very open once she understood what it was. She tested for me and she was negative and we bought her. Her owner and I are now very close friends and we absolutely adore our heifer.

[tiffin]

I've been trying to find out when this PHA in Dexters was first discovered. I never heard of it until maybe 2 years ago. Did it just pop up out of nowhere? Any statistics of how many calves been found dead with this?

edited:
I found an article that said 1985 as the first known tested Dexter. But still no real statistic of how many calves have died.

We had a stillborn this past summer but it was perfectly normal in size and shape so I know it wasn't Chondro or PHA.

[tiffin]

Thank you, Genebo. I'm still wondering about how many are lost to this. I suspect it is actually rare. I also think Copperhead started this thread in regard to my bull who has not been tested for PHA. Why don't I test him? It will not be that easy. He has not been handled. He weights about 1,000 lbs. I'm not going in there and plucking his tail hairs. Then have it come back positive after all that and $28.00. No, he's going in the freezer. And, then no more bulls for me.

[marion]

Tiffin, I dont know if this would apply in your situation, and maybe you would rather eat the bull. But, (unless the bull is a complete nutbar who wont come anywhere near), an unhandled animal can be brought into a (nice solid) pen with a group, and it should be easy if the cows are reasonably tame. Once in the pen make sure they are either crowded, or diverted with yummy Dexter food, and from the outside using a livestock cane you can reach over and flip up the tail switch and get your hair sample in one swift pull..marion

[kansasdexters]

Tiffin,

You would need a tail hair sample in order to genotype the bull, and having him genotyped is required before you can register him --- and it's just as easy to get two hair samples as it is to get one. Where there's a will, there's a way.

Patti

[jamshundred]

**I've been trying to find out when this PHA in Dexters was first discovered. I never heard of it until maybe 2 years ago. Did it just pop up out of nowhere? Any statistics of how many calves been found dead with this?**

Tiffin,

I'm going to respond to your question because it is a BIG sore point with me. I brought PHA into my herd with a cow purchased from the west in 2005. The irony is that I was trying in 2004 to get the leadership to lead on the issue of a new lethal in the breed and they did nothing! ! !

Two major breeders who served in positions of leadership had PHA in their herds. They didn't know it was PHA but they had been around for years and they knew dead calves they saw were "different" and once the test for chondro was established they knew it was a NEW lethal. As early as 2002 you can read comments on the DexterCattle2 board from a breeder who mentions having a non-chondro deformed calf and members of leadership knew it was a problem. It is my opinion that at least two major breeders at various times involved in leadership positions knew which bloodlines were a problem and because it included their farms they protected their own herds and spread this stuff about and that testing and disclosure today doesn't make up for that damage done to the breed and it's breeders since they were basically forced into it by science. I begged the association, beginning as early as 2004 to DO something about this issue but it was not only ignored. . . but hushed.

Here's my complaint. These members of leadership should have alerted the membership. All they had to do was put an article in the Bulletin and discuss in meetings or whatever venue where Dexter issues are discussed the fact that deformed calves similar to bulldogs but not the same were being born. . . . . and that *IF* breeders had ANY deformed calves they should alert the association. THIS WAS NOT DONE! ! It was kept a secret. For instance, I've been told by knowledgable sources the ADCA secretary was given a photo of one of the calves born in and around 2002 on the farm of one of the two members of ADCA leadership with genetic committee membership or connections. I have been furious that persons who should have been caretakers of the breed as well as the breeders protected their herds at other's expense, including mine. Jon Beever was shown calves on a farm that were not chondro aborts after a Dexter meeting which was previous to 2002. The leadership should have alerted breeders instead of keeping this problem hidden. By hiding it they likely delayed the science of discovering just what it actually was! ( You might read through some posts on the DC2 board in 08 and 09 that shows another effort to keept this under wraps).

The average breeder who had the calves believed them to be bulldog calves because PHA calves look so similar. The major difference for the inexperienced is the legs. Bulldogs have little stumpy appendages sticking of the deformed fetus, and "waterbabies" have longer legs.
I spoke to a woman today who has these at-risk blood lines and we were discussing breeding carriers and bulldogs and she mentioned she had one of these bulldog calves and the bull who sired it. She said she was confident it would not have happened except that she had bred back a daughter to her father. I looked at her herd listing and I immediately knew it wasn't a bulldog. After telling her I was concerned it was a PHA calf she described it. Yep. It had legs and had to be cut out of the cow. The hot bloodline was right there in the bull. This person has every single animal in the herd now at risk to be PHA carriers. Her only source of information is the Bulletin . . . . as she does not have a computer. How much information about this issue is being given to members to educate them and show photos and discuss bloodlines at risK? Very darn little. Why?

I do lots of pedigree research. Daily in fact. I cannot tell if a breeder has tested and knows if their animals are carriers but I certainly see a lot of animals I consider "at-risk" ( and very much so) being moved on to new owners. I understand buyer beware. . . . but this is like selling someone a dog you know has been bitten by a rabid fox and not telling them the risk.
The leadership in this breed should be DOING more than they are on this issue to educate their membership and potential members. There should be an information article in every publication.

Judy Sponaugle

[copperhead]

OTF, I know what you mean, I have one "legacy" cow that is a carrier and so far I'm planning to beef her bulls and test her heifers, but, I may just go ahead and beef her and be done with it. I for sure will not sell her because I don't want to take the chance on someone else who might not care.
P.J.

[jsm6996]

I'm new to the group, I just have a steer, bred heifer and a cow that calved on dec the 6th. I also had a chance to buy a very nice bull, but he wasn't pha tested, and his sire was pha positive., i found an ai tech near me and ordered semen and got the one cow ai'ed.

thanks
scott

[jsm6996]

im sorry i wasnt very clear i meant i had the heifer ai'ed in sept. not the cow. sorry about not being clear

scott