Color question

[marion]

Just wanted to say, Charles that is the best nose picture yet ;D and we know we have an easy breed to get nose pictures! There always seems to be one cow that simply must try to lick the camera..marion

[ctownson]

Thanks! Midas is our most laid-back Dexter on the farm. I just walked out into the pasture this morning and called him. He walked up and was so curious about the camera I had to hold it above my head just to take the shots. Now, here is some more interesting information. We have two other red dexters (Breeze and Clover) that we have shown a lot. They both have black noses. They are in another pasture that I was working in today and I made a point of looking closely at their nose after this thread. Both Breeze and Clover have black noses - very different than Midas. If Barb's theory is correct, I would assume they have the other type of red. Maybe I will have to color test them after all....

[legendrockranch]

Charles, I'd hold off on what I said earlier. John P has been trying to figure this out for a long time. Hopefully he'll have some time and send me the clarifications. I'll post them on the forum when I get the info.

Barb

[legendrockranch]

Below are pictures and comments I received in an e-mail from John P that can help us with the variations and speckling of red Dexter nose colors.

Here is some information you may find helpful:

1. I know that e/e cattle aren't supposed to be able to have or show any black pigment, but I have seen and/or owned plenty of e/e animals that do show black pigment. The 3 animals whose pix are attached are MLW Chamomile 14588, SGF SBAN Saber 018869, and SGF LPFK Titan 13963. All 3 are e/e reds. The black pigment in Saber and Titan is confined to the speckles on their noses. Chamomile not only has a black-speckled nose, but also she has a black muzzle ring, black hair inside her ears, and black in the switch of her tail.

2. Dexters that are e/e may have pink or speckled noses. I have not seen any e/e Dexters with black noses.

3. Dexters that are E+/E+ or E+/e may have black, speckled, or pink noses.

4. Red (E+/E+, E+/e, or e/e) Dexters that are homozygous for dun (b/b) have pink noses, not speckled and not black.

Chamomile


Saber


Titan


Thanks John for the info and your help.

Barb

[cddexter]

Gene, if you want to use scientific symbols, PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE use the right ones. Do not use 'd' in any form, when relating to Dexters. Use 'b' for Dexter 'dun' because it is a brown mutation. The other allele at that site, the capital 'B', is not the same as the Ed gene at the MC1R (base color locus) site. Mixing scientific symbols with letters that we use for convenience is a really bad idea. c.

[cddexter]

Oh, fer gawd's sake, Gene, take those tight shoes off!

Thanks for modifying your previous post.

c.

[ctownson]

thanks for the information Barb - I may have to just go ahead and test my other two red dexters now given how different their noses are from Midas. It would make for an interesting comparison when I got the results.

[kansasdexters]

Genebo,

Lochinvar is horned, pure black, (Ed/Ed, B/B) - he doesn't carry red or dun. Lochinvar is also A2/A2, Chondro-free and PHA-free. We've produced several very nice heifers using Lochinvar in our AI breeding program.

Wakarusa RLA Galen is unrelated to Lochinvar, but he is also pure black (Ed/Ed, B/B), homozygous for A2 Beta Casein, PHA-free, and Chondro-free. We recently sold Galen to Matt Osborn in Eureka, KS and Matt's using him now to breed his Dexter cows for 2011 Fall calves.


Patti

[Star Creek Dexters]

Thanks for that post on the black/pink noses, Barb. Thank Mr Potter for me as well! I really love the black noses and the black "eye liner" around the eyes on reds. One day I would like to introduce that into our herd, when I find the perfect cow or, later, bull that happens to have that as a bonus! Good to know what to look for color wise to incorporate that into our herd!

[cddexter]

Barb, I haven't had the chance to double check with JP, but think I'm on fairly solid ground. Nine years ago, John and I had long disscussions about just what the brown gene and the 'other' gene at that locus actually did. If I remember correctly, the 'other' gene, the 'B', didn't really DO anything, it was sort of just there. I couldn't get my head around this, and even just yesterday, talking again with John, we discussed it's function. My understanding is that the B facilitates the expression of black. Since Dexters are the only cattle breed with not black, not red, phenotypic coloration that DOESN'T come from the conventional dilute genes, but from a mutated recessive gene that turns the coat color brown instead, this for me was confusing.
Apparently it all has something to do with enabling the chemical pathways, which is WAY over my head. So, while the B is called 'black' at TYRP1, it isn't actually a 'black' gene in the conventional sense, but more of an enabler of the expression of black elsewhere. I used to call it a 'null' gene, because it didn't take any action itself, but I suppose it would be more accurate to call it irrelevant.

To quote myself from the 2002 Congress paper, 'there is little scientific credit in pursuing unfunded research into a non-production trait in a fringe breed.' We were just lucky that Dr. Schmutz was working on brown in dogs, that John was able to convince her we had something unique, and that she thought to run Dexter dna through her dog brown locus program.

Gene asks if anyone is doing research on pink noses in red animals that are homo bb. Same reasoning applies. Unfunded research into a non-production (or non-functional) trait isn't going to happen, unless by a fluke. If someone wanted to pursue this, it's probably going to cost between $20,000 - $60,000, with no guarantees you'll find the answer, which I guess is an answer in itself.

To add to John's list, I've seen some English Dexters that were red (not tested but from a red and black herd where the bull did get tested and was ee and she didn't breed duns) with heavy black on the face, legs and tail, but with soft pink noses, no black or grey, which is yet another combination.

If Darwin's wrong, and religionists are right and some greater external force created all this stuff with a purpose, he, she or it was sure sloppy about it, and went way overboard with unnecessary complexity. ;D It sure gives us something to talk about, tho'.
c.

[cddexter]

All the Bedfords I had here were black, no dun or red. Wioodmagic introduced dun in some, and Platinum introduced red in Hiyu Salty Rambler IV. Romarc Rambler would have been EdEd BB. c.

[Euchee Creek Farm]

This is a little off the subject but has to do with color. Where does the light color tail switch come from? I am getting that question all the time as my bull has such a light colored switch and I have no answer. He is very dark red with a lot of black on his face. I have attached a picture to show his coloring.

[cddexter]

White and cream hair is fairly common. c.

[Star Creek Dexters]

Sheila,
He's really pretty! Wait, I guess handsome would be the better term =)

Kooper has the light tail hairs mixed in as well. My two black cows have some white tail hairs, and my dun cow has quite a few white tail hairs.

[Euchee Creek Farm]

I have seen some with some light hairs in their tails but none with the whole switch light like his. I am still trying to decide what I think of it, at times I think it is pretty and other times not so much. The brindle Dexter that I saw pictured somewhere was a surprise that I thought was very pretty. Was that on this board?

Love these little cattle that are always full of pleasant surprises.