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Post by Cloverbell on Jul 2, 2011 9:50:11 GMT -5
Excuse me for taking a vacation for about 18 months from the Dexter boards, but "What the heck"?? Last I was here the PHA gene and testing were fairly new and everyone was encouraged to test their herds if they had descendents of Trilliam Chabotte (estimated to be over 4,000 now? Am I right?) and report them to their registry. (There were about 75-85 listed on the ADCA registry at that time) Done and done. I had some, reported them, changed breeding bull, made adjustments, moved on. Imagine my surprise to come back after all this time and see only 120 listed on the ADCA registry! Say what? Somebody correct me here but if the chance of passing it on is 50% then shouldn't the potential carriers be more like 2000?
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Post by otf on Jul 2, 2011 12:43:20 GMT -5
Cloverbell, welcome back. I guess nobody wants to own up to having PHA carriers. I've got two, mother and daughter, and consider both to be wonderful animals. Probably won't ever sell either because I know that I will test any offspring to be used for breeding...the way things are going these days, I don't trust most other people to do that...and I would not want either one of these cows or their future offspring to be put at risk.
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Post by ctownson on Jul 2, 2011 16:04:41 GMT -5
Welcome back to the Board! I think there are a number of factors at work. First, a lot of folks simply don't test for whatever reason. Then, some who have tested and have gotten positive results don't report them. I also think (and this is strictly an opinion) that pha is not nearly as common as many thought it was going to be. With all the shows, traveling, etc. that we do I have still only seen a small number of pha positive dexters. In addition, we have bought a number of non-tested cows over the past 5 years. Some of these were from "at risk" lines. After testing every one of these cows, not a single one came back positive for pha.
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Post by cddexter on Jul 2, 2011 17:17:19 GMT -5
Charles, I agree probably a lot of the carriers either belong to people who won't test, or have and won't talk about it. However, as to your opinion that it's not as common as people think: please don't do that. I know statistics are just the law of averages, but if you make it sound like the problem isn't as 'big' as it's advertised, people may discount it. As a Director, very frequent poster on a lot of boards, and as someone who's perceived as knowledgeable, this is misleading. Carriers have a 50% chance of passing the gene on. Just yesterday I got input about a recent post on another board where some newbie came on and said pha isn't all that big a problem and can be ignored. I just hope it doesn't come back to bite him where he sits down. Sometimes ya get lucky, like I did, and sometimes not. If you've not seen it as often as you thought you might, maybe the cut bull calves represent the missing numbers. The bottom line is that for every calf from a carrier, it's still a coin toss every time. Cloverbell....I was wondering where you went. So, don't look just to Chabotte, because an even more likely source is Priapus who was used extensively in the U.S. And, as John P proved, pha goes back to Wheatear, so anything with Wheatear behind it is suspect unless cleared by actual testing, or by inheritance from tested descendants. I had Priapus here for three years, so probably unknowingly did my share to spread the problem. I'm pretty sure Giacomo was a carrier, because I had Rosgay tested by Julie in Au in the days before we could test here, and she came back positive, but none of her kept offspring have been carriers--I've either tested them myself, or their semen has been tested. ;D ;D Phew!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I had some pretty bleak moments, I can tell you. c.
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Post by legendrockranch on Jul 2, 2011 17:25:36 GMT -5
From what I see happening is that people just don't test. They make sure their bull is a non-carrier and use him on their entire herd. They won't have any problems. They then sell the calves off untested. Some people do test, but the results are not made public.
There is a carrier bull I know of that has had 28 progeny, statically 50% of his progeny should be carriers. To this date he is still not listed on the ADCA website as a carrier.
And so it goes. You did the right thing with your breeding program, I just wish others would follow your example.
Barb
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Post by ctownson on Jul 2, 2011 17:49:13 GMT -5
Let me clarify - a cow that has not been tested that came from a "suspected" line from many generations ago may be far less than a 50/50 chance. It depends on how many non-carrier generations have elapsed from the suspected carrier. Say for example, a carrier was 4 generations ago. That is a 50/50 chance. The offspring is a carrier but is then bred to a non carrier. Again, 50/50 chance. That offspring is a non-carrier - now there is zero chance. That is passed to subsequent offspring. All I am saying is that over many generations of breeding to non-carriers I don't think pha is as prevalent as it was once made out to be. The easy and sure way is to test - I wish everyone did and reported their results.
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Post by Cloverbell on Jul 2, 2011 19:22:03 GMT -5
I may need to check with my friend at Vanderbilt University who is a statistics PhD to run this by her but I'm pretty sure the 50-50 rule holds true with this size of sample. I think she once said that 1600 was the starting point for a + or - 2% statistically relevant sampling but I'll check with her. Anyway, that's not really my angle here. My point is MAN UP PEOPLE and report your findings!! Geez! It's not even hard to do - email Chuck Daggett and he posts them. Seriously! What are people telling potential buyers? "I don't know?" when they know? Oh yeah. That's going to do a lot for the breed! Come on!
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Post by kansasdexters on Jul 2, 2011 19:37:44 GMT -5
Hi Charles,
There is a 50/50 chance of passing on the PHA gene every time a PHA-carrier is bred. We learned this lesson the hard way. Just take a look at the pedigree of O'Bannon's Brogan, ADCA #016268, and you will see that Trillium Chabotte appears only one time, 4-generations back. Trillium Chabotte's son, Cranworth Xanadu inherited the PHA gene (there is no test result reported for him), he passed to his son, Shome Paul (there is also no test result reported for him), and he passed it to Miss Snowbird #20 (there is no test result reported for her), and she passed it to O'Bannon's Brogan -- the bull that we actually tested and found to be a PHA-carrier. We reported this test result and it is shown on his ADCA Online Pedigree.
Before we knew anything about PHA, and before we knew that our herd sire, O'Bannon's Brogan, was a PHA-carrier, we'd already used him in our breeding program for 4 years. He had sired 36 registered progeny. We have since paid for, and tested, and reported on all of these progeny that were kept as breeding stock. We did not test the registered steers.
Approximately half of Brogan's offspring that we tested, came back as being PHA-carriers. Once we knew their PHA-status, we then replaced any PHA-carrier that we'd sold to another owner with an equal or better PHA-free animal, if that owner desired to do this. We also culled O'Bannon's Brogan, it was time for a new herd sire anyway. Now, we only sell tested, PHA-free animals to other breeders. But we have kept the best of the PHA-carriers sired by Brogan and we continue to use them in our breeding program and to test their offspring. We refuse to sell any PHA-carriers as breeding stock (either registered or unregistered).
In the past, we've also bought untested cows from other breeders and then tested them. Two of these tested as PHA-carriers: Hiyu Woodlark and BVF Gallagher's Rosie. We reported their test results and also notified the breeders of each cow that they'd produced a PHA-carrier animal. We thought that those breeder's, now knowing that these cows had tested as PHA-carriers, would then test the sire and dam and determine where the PHA gene had come from and then report it. But we were wrong -- if these folks tested, they did not report to the ADCA registry any test results. So their animals don't show up as being tested on their ADCA Online Pedigree page(s).
If each breeder would just do their part, test their animals, and report their results, the PHA "fear factor" and "stigma" would soon fade. It is this fear of the unknown that causes the anxiety, the stigma, and the hysterics about PHA. It's an easy problem to fix, but the fix isn't coming anytime soon, if owner/breeders aren't willing to test their animals and report their results.
Patti
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Post by legendrockranch on Jul 2, 2011 19:48:30 GMT -5
Well I thought it would be interesting to do a breakdown of the PHA carrier bull I mentioned early to see if any of his progeny had been tested and if their results were posted on the ADCA website.
Below is what I found, now remember this is just one bull.
Tested animals: 1 steer, carrier 1 bull, carrier 2 bulls, non-carrier 0 cows
Non-tested animals: 0 steers 6 bulls, 1 bull deceased 16 cows 1 cow deceased
Barb
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Post by ctownson on Jul 2, 2011 20:03:39 GMT -5
Patti - I agree with everything you have said. My point is that many of the original pha carriers have subsequently been bred to non-carriers. So, if you take .50 as the starting point and have 3 subsequent breedings to non-carriers, the math becomes .5 x .5 x .5 x .5. Thus, the animal you buy today, may have a very low chance of being a carrier. Everytime we have bought a Dexter that was "suspect", I looked at their lines and determined what I thought was a reasonable risk/reward given the statistics. If I have a .125 chance the cow is a carrier and I can get her for a low price as a result, I will take my chances if it is a cow we like. It is really no more than a mathematical calculation if you have some results that are known.
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Post by cddexter on Jul 2, 2011 20:54:34 GMT -5
I'm with you Cloverbell and Barb. I've tested everything I have, and everything I've sold since pha was identified. Those results are on the ADCA website. The bulls already on AI were tested through semen, some by me, some by Patti and Monica. The two big at-risk owners with animals from my herd are both in Alberta, and I notified them as well. Since they don't register in the U.S., I don't know if they've tested or not. Two other bulls out there and still breeding were tested with my help, and both were negative. I even contacted the owners of offshore purchases to let them know they should be testing their imports. By the time an animal has gone through several owners, a lot of them no longer in Dexters, and there are only offspring, or offspring of offspring, left, I figure with all the publicity there's only so far you can go. Speaking of Woodlark, I sold her as a calf in 1994, she was 15 when pha first hit the headlines, and there weren't any parents or g'parents around to test... c.
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Post by kansasdexters on Jul 2, 2011 22:26:55 GMT -5
Hi C.
You may want to check with the ADCA Registrar because to date, there are only 8 Hiyu animals that have been tested and reported for PHA. I tested and reported on Hiyu Salty Rambler IV, Hiyu Renown Magician, and Hiyu Tyee (as well as Bedford Romarc Rambler and River Hill Saturn's Galaxy) from semen that I had purchased from you and I tested and reported Hiyu Woodlark from tail hairs (since I owned the cow in 2009). Monica Dexter tested and reported on Hiyu Rambler II. Monica also tested Wee Gaelic Mr. O'Toole for PHA, but apparently she didn't submit the report (he tested as PHA-free) to the Registrar.
That means that the ADCA registry only received three test reports from you: Brightlea Benjamin, Brightlea Dorothy, and Hiyu A Dora Bull, at least that's all that's shown and these are all indicated to be PHA non-carriers. The only PHA carrier that was bred by you and reported was Hiyu Woodlark, the cow that I tested and reported. So please consider reporting your PHA-carriers to the ADCA Registrar and getting that information put on their online pedigrees. Thanks!
Patti
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Post by cddexter on Jul 3, 2011 0:19:12 GMT -5
gee, patti, who put a burr up your behind?
I own three registered Dexters. All are tested. I'm about to register a fourth, which will be tested, too.
Oleander was put down about two years ago. She was pure Bedford and therefore not at risk.
Thanks to my connection with Julie Cavahagh, Rosegay was tested in AU prior to testing being available here, and is positive. I thought I'd sent that one in with the others done later, but either I didn't or Chuck missed it. owello. you can read about it here.
Dorothy tested negative
I bought a tested negative bull from Monica (Winslow)
Benjamin was tested prior to being offered for sale, and is now in the US, negative. You can admire his two photos on the ADCA website. Pretty nice small non-dwarf bull, huh?
Marcie Read owns Adorabull. I didn't test him, she did.
Buyers in NZ and AU were told immediately there was a question. I don't own the animals, I don't know if they have been tested or not. I have no control over their testing.
Known owners in Canada and the US were contacted immediately there was a question. I don't own the animals, I don't know if they have been tested or not. I have no control over their testing.
I don't own any semen any more. It was all sold prior to pha being an issue. You can check with John P: I offered to buy some back and send it in for testing. He said thanks for the offer, but I think we have it aced, I'll let you know. In the meantime I was in touch with the DCAI pha contact, and doing all sorts of pedigree research for John, and I did a full three generation descendants list complete with current owner for the Canadians, so they would know who to contact and which animals to test.
Your post earlier specifically mentions Woodlark and then goes on to castigate the breeder who has not tested sire or dam or posted any results on the ADCA website. Bad breeder!! Well, gosh, Woodlark was born in 1994 and you were her fourth owner. Her sire and dam were dead before Shep sold her on, and certainly long dead before pha was even a blip on the horizon. In her case there's nothing left to test.
I've tested everything I control. Are you expecting more?
Why this personal attack, Patti?
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Post by rawlingsdexter on Jul 3, 2011 5:24:28 GMT -5
I thought I would share our experience here in Oz where grading up was allowed. A foundation cow was inseminated with Trillium Chabotte to produce a Grade1, that breeding went through several generations of females to PB. The chances were low as far as I thought that our PB cow that we had brought in would be a carrier. It was decided to test our whole herd to make sure that we did not have PHA carriers and to give us the same marketing qualifications as other breeders in Tasmania. Yoplait's test results came back that she was in deed a carrier, the slim chance had gone 6 generations in the female line making each of those females along the way carriers as well. We had two daughters out of Yoplait and fortunately for us both of those tested free. The bull calf that was born just after her testing went on to be a steer and the hard decision was made that Yoplait was not to be bred again. We have not onsold her to some upsuspecting newbie, but rather had her slaughtered. The end of her producing PHA carriers in the future. If everyone was as committed to not breeding further carriers and reporting their results we would all as breeders be better informed. Sadly not everyone has the same beliefs and ideals, I have done what I think is the right thing for the future of the breed. I hope everyone else makes the same decisions which are right for their own breeding operations and Dexters as a whole. Marg Rawlings www.dexterbeef.com.au
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Post by marion on Jul 3, 2011 8:25:36 GMT -5
If each breeder would just do their part, test their animals, and report their results, the PHA "fear factor" and "stigma" would soon fade. It is this fear of the unknown that causes the anxiety, the stigma, and the hysterics about PHA. It's an easy problem to fix, but the fix isn't coming anytime soon, if owner/breeders aren't willing to test their animals and report their results. Patti Patti, There were many breeders that were on board with this effort early on. Carol located, bought, shipped and paid for semen testing on at least one other bull with which she had NO personal connection, where the original owner was no longer involved/interested. The last of that semen was recently distributed (at cost), by another Cdn breeder, so Carol's testing immediately benefitted a number of people, as well as completing the PHA testing of Canadian AI bulls. I was asked by Carol, if I might be able to provide a Platinum straw for PHA testing. I could have sold it for $100+ but was glad to be able to help. That testing was paid for by John Potter, who was also able to split the straw and provide DNA on Platinum for the ADCA records. I tested all my breeding stock regardless of pedigree (all tested PHA free). One was done by drawing blood, couriered to the US before hair testing was available. I wanted to make darn sure that none of the breeding stock I owned or sold to others carried PHA. Also, I felt it was important (as did some others), to test animals not descended from Wheatear, as a spot-check on other lines. It was no big deal, and cost only the same as a few round bales. Canada does not yet have a reporting system. Liz D. set up a Yahoo group for CDCA members to report their PHA results, until CDCA has something in place. Now, and especially in Canada, there needs to be more education on the importance of PHA testing, and it is an ongoing effort by those passionate about the breed, even when it does not benefit them personally..marion
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