Cause of diarrhea?

[Dahdo]

Frank, my yearling bull, has had diarrhea now for 3-4 weeks. I treated everybody for worms using Basic H and it seemed to improve for a few days, then went back to runny.

He has lost some weight, but seems to be eating fine. Until a 7-10 days ago, he was the only one that had a problem. Now my other yearling bull has it too. I took in a fecal sample and it was clear for parasites, but the vet thought he might have fluks and recommended Ivomec+. I gave that 5 days ago and have not noticed any improvement. How long would it normally take for the wormer/flukicide to be effective?

I know diet can cause diarrhea, but this started when they had been on pasture for several months. The only things I have have added are a new loose mineral mix and then I started giving them about 5 lbs of alfalfa hay to supplement the grass.

I'd sure appreciate any ideas. I'm worried that the heifers may get whatever this and they are both pregnant.

Dave

[dexterfarm]

I would check his temp. If no temp I would suspect it is something he is eating. try different hay maybe a real good grass hay. Try going back to the minerals you were using before.

[otf]

Did they check the fecal sample for coccidia? I'm not certain if that's a given when fecals are analyzed. It's usually found in younger animals, but it doesn't hurt to find out.

[ctownson]

I would also recommend you check for coccidia. Has anything else changed - exposure to some new animals, grain, etc? What, if any, immunizations has he had?

[rezzfullacres]

Was the Alfalfa added before or after the diarrhea? If it was after discontinue...I would supplement with plain grass hay rather than alfalfa... Walk through your pasture and see if there is someting he could be eating that he is teaching the others too eat, certain weeds can cause this problem...If you have a head gate give him a couple of activated charcoal caplets to soak up anything in his stomach that may be toxic...If you can not get a handle on this you may want to seperate your bulls until you can get a firm diagnoses to keep your heifers safe..What kind of water source do the cattle have? Water is a great source of bacteria....

[Dahdo]

I checked with the vet office and they said coccidia was checked in the fecal and it was clear.

He has not had any immunizations. The breeder I bought him from does not do any except the required brucellosis. No new animals or other changes that I can think of--just the alfalfa hay and minerals.

I did add the alfalfa after this started, so I will quit that and leave some hay out instead. I have been walking the pasture daily and watching what they eat ( as well the status of their manure)--so far I don't see that he is eating anything different.

As for temperature--I have not done this before....I assume you need a rectal thermometer and a squeeze.

I was going to have the bulls castrated soon anyway, so I am thinking of having the vet out sooner now to evaluate this.

Oh--does anyone have a good sense of how long it should take for Ivomec+ to clear a liver fluk problem? It has been 6 days now.

Thanks very much for all you ideas,
Dave

[otf]

Here's the Merial website; you can always contact them for information on their product.

us.merial.com/producers/cow_calf/products/cowcalf_ivomec_plus.asp

Perhaps the diarrhea is from the alfalfa; I don't know as we don't feed alfalfa to our cows. Yes, I doubt you could take their temps without a headgate/chute of some sort.

Hope you get this figured out; your vet may have some ideas after seeing them.

[dexterfarm]

use a regular glass thermometer. Tie a string on it to make sure you dont loose it in there you dont want to have to go fishing for it. Temp should be 102.5. I would not castrate him until he is back to normal.

[Dahdo]

otf--the alfalfa hay was recommended by our extension guy to supplement our local hay which only has 6-7% CP. The alfalfa was intended for this winter when they are off pasture (about a month I'd guess). The ration will be 70/30 local hay to alfalfa. The alfalfa has 21% CP and I wonder if it is just too rich with then they are still on pasture...I am going to take them off it until this gets settled.

[rezzfullacres]

We have found that alfalfa loosens up a cows manure as it is considered a "hot" feed. We feed a little bit to our milk cow but not to any other cattle. You could try adding a bit of barley straw to his diet to firm him up a bit...Does your grass enter a fall growth stage, if so sometimes there is a spike in the protein level and that can also cause loose manure.....There can be many reasons but in an older cow most of them are diet based and not cause for alarm...Keep you eye on his condition and as long as he is maintaining or growing he will be OK...With that much alfalfa it sounds like your extension agent believes you are feeding dairy cattle.....Dexters can not take too much of that high protein feed, they are not designed for it.....JMHO....We feed nothing but fescue hay...It varies from 7-10%.....What we do is supplement with a little bit of 13% feeder pellets, probably cheaper than the alfalfa and when we feed it gives us a chance to wonder amoung the herd and observe all of them and ensure there are no issues that need to be addressed....

[Dahdo]

We do get a fall growth spurt in grass this time of year in Oregon, so that may be contributing....kind of OD'ing them on protein maybe? Since this hasn't been an issue with the heifers I was looking at some other cause. Is it possible that the heifers, who are both pregnant, are able to handle more protein as they try and grow and support their calves due in April?

By the way--the vet says if it is liver fluks, don't expect them to clear up for at least 2 weeks after treatment...so that's another 8 days.

Thanks again for the help here--sure is nice to have some experienced folks to bounce things off.

[rezzfullacres]

Pregnant cows and heifers require much more protein than bulls and steers.....You can probably get by with 7% protein for the boys and non-lactating, non-pregnant girls but you will need probably about 10% or more for the girls that are expecting or milking..........IMHO you are simply being too kind too them.... Remember they are cattle, not pets...Treat them as such and you will be money aead.....

[Dahdo]

rezz- once they are on hay, the ration of 70% my fescue/timothy hay and 30% alfalfa will give about 11% protein--which is what I wanted for the heifers. I know the bulls won't need that much, but I do want them to gain so I'm going to give everybody the same ration. Besdies it would be hard to anything else unless I keep them separate.

I think I jumped the gun by giving them some alfalfa now while still on the pasture. I may be guilty of babying them a bit, but I don't consider them pets. I enjoy being with them, but we have a deal--I give them the best care I can and they give some nutritious and delicious beef.

I do also walk out and inspect and hand out some alfalfa pellets daily, but that is maybe a 1/4 pound each. By the way, I don't know if it is still true with hay prices the way they are this year, but my extension guy told me that the price per pound of protein was higher for the pellets than for alfalfa hay and the pellets are made from lower quality alfalfa...

Much to learn!
Dave

[rawlingsdexter]

We have always found that about 60 mls of Natural Yoghurt a good way to get an animal that is scouring to firm up. Try that first before expensive other options.

It DOES work.

Marg

[rezzfullacres]

I did not mean alfalfa pellets, sorry for not being clearer. I feed a feeder/grower ration that I buy from a local feed mill. Might I ask if you had a protein test done on your hay? It sems 7% is a little low for hay containing Timothy. I do believe the fall growth spurt combined with the rich alfalfa is the problem. Drop the alfalfa, if you can get you hands on a bale or 2 of wheat/barley straw throw that out there for them to munch on, it will firm them up a bit and they actually seem to enjoy the change.. Just put out a flake per cow every other day for a week or so....Good Luck I hope you get this cleared up...