|
Post by Cascade Meadows Farm - Kirk on Nov 30, 2012 13:40:07 GMT -5
Kirk, you still haven't addressed how I would be compensated for my (now 14) chondro carrier cows and/or bulls in my herd, including the 50% of the calves that I would never be able to register, or offer to others who are interested in raising REGISTERED Dexter chondro positive herds themselves. You are throwing out the baby with the bath water, and asking for another split in the association. It is never going to happen. Rather than trying to sneak your chondro elimination strategy in with the trojan-horse of other (potential) genetic issues, why don't you focus on what CAN be accomplished with more support than what you would receive with your "ALL OR NOTHING" approach. How is chondro different from any other genetic disease that we will discover in the future? What if we discover some other new lethal dwarfing gene has been hiding in a few herds. What if we discover that in its homozygous state, this new form of dwarfism kills calves and kills mothers too. What if we discover that in its heterozygous state, it can make lovely shorter animals, but they deteriorate rapidly at 5 years of age with horrible, painful disfigurements? Sure, they're show-winning before they start twisting into a disfigured mess at age 5. Will we allow this new form of dwarfism to spread? What if some breeders WANT to breed for this defect? How will we compensate those with the misfortune of having this gene if we refuse to register THEIR carrier calves? The issue of compensation is NO different from one disease to another. Herds will continue to get impacted as we find new diseases. BUT, that's why I propose that breeders be allowed to continue to breed from ALL disease carriers for the life of the animal - they can register non-carrying calves, and they can sell unregisterable carrying calves as meat or pets. That seems like reasonable compensation and we are ALL equally at risk. A new genetic disease could hit any of us (its a risk in ALL animals). Anyone who wants to purposefully breed for genetic disease defects, or cross breeding, or whatever, may do so OUTSIDE of the registry. That's what many folks are already doing today in creating those really cute dwarf highlanders. They do it OUTSIDE the purebreed registries.
|
|
|
Post by Cascade Meadows Farm - Kirk on Nov 30, 2012 13:49:25 GMT -5
Hi Kirk, I don't believe that you can beat people into submission (with a "BIG" stick) and expect them to have a positive attitude toward the task at hand. That approach doesn't work with cattle and it doesn't work with people. The choice to register or not to register belongs to the owner/breeder. The choice to test or not to test belongs to the owner/breeder. The choice to belong to a breed Association, belongs to the owners and breeders. If you beat on them, people will leave, they don't have to "submit". What the Association can do is to offer resources, education, and encouragement to owners and breeders so that they have a constructive path to follow and well defined goals and milestones to achieve. The Association can keep track of, and report on progress made towards these goals. The Association can recognize and celebrate the achievements and accomplishments of its members, as a group, and as individuals (thereby encouraging others to model the desired behaviors). But here's the catch, it has to be leadership by example. There is no credibility in the Association's policy, if the leadership isn't doing it 100%. They cannot ask of others what they do not ask of themselves. Patti What if we proposed this phase-1 part of a larger policy to the leadership of ALL registries, world-wide 1. Mark all existing suspected carriers in the pedigree system with a "Suspected Carrier" code. So the choices would be NON-Carrier, Suspected Carrier, and Carrier. 2. Calves from Suspected-Carriers would NOT be eligible for registration until the parents were tested or the calf is tested. Carrier calves can continue to be registered (for now), but suspected carriers require testing before being registered. 3. In the case of PHA, ALL wheatear descendents would be considered "Suspect-Carriers" unless tested otherwise (obligate tests allowed). In the case of Chondro, all dexters are considered suspect unless descending from tested animals. This first baby-step of a more comprehensive defect policy, could be announced in 2013 and implemented in 2014 This seems like a VERY easy and painless thing to do.
|
|
|
Post by lakeportfarms on Nov 30, 2012 14:16:24 GMT -5
The difference is simply the level of support you'll get for putting in place policies that you believe are important to the possible future recognition of genetics that may be undesirable for the breed.
Once again, why don't you focus on what you CAN get a substantial majority support for, instead of fighting the numerous current owners of already identified and fully researched things like chondrodysplasia, which already has a test available to determine status animals.
Are you aware that "defective chondro carrier" Mornstar Ruby (the current Grand Champion cow) was bred by Pam Malcuit, the current President of the ADCA? Are you aware that Wieringa's Paula, and many of the other Wieringa show champions are also "defective chondro carriers"? Roberta Wieringa of course being the immediate past-President of the ADCA. I'm sure there are others, like Patti, who are also owners of chondro-positive Dexters who are or will be officers or members of committees in the ADCA.
Debating the inclusion of chondro into the same category of possible genetic issues that you raise is folly, and will simply serve to hinder the adoption of legitimate reforms and monitoring of future genetic issues that may arise.
I don't know how much more I or anybody else here can do to convince you that getting 75 or 100% support for a policy and getting it done is better than getting 35% and getting nothing done. That's what you face.
|
|
|
Post by kansasdexters on Nov 30, 2012 14:58:27 GMT -5
Kirk,
For the Registrars around the world, having to add "suspect carrier" to every untested/unreported animal in their registries would be a very time-consuming effort, and not time well spent. Then, when an animal was tested and reported, they would have to go back and change the entries, which is not a painless thing to do, and not time well spent.
You keep wanting to follow the Angus Association's policy of barring carriers from registration. I've already explained why I don't think that is an effective approach, and why it may actually be counterproductive in eliminating undesired genetic defects from the breed.
What may be a more effective approach is to educate Dexter cattle owners, breeders, and buyers about the known genetic defects that are found in our breed. If buyers require that registered animals be tested and reported, then owners and breeders will test and report their animals. If the market shows a defined preference for non-carrier, registered animals, then owners and breeders will purposefully select for non-carrier animals from their tested herds.
If owner/breeders want to claim PHA-free or Chondro-free obligate status (no test report needed for the animal), then parentage verification of both sire and dam should be the minimum requirement when that animal is registered. And you still need to finish doing that with your own herd.
Patti
|
|
|
Post by rezzfullacres on Nov 30, 2012 15:35:48 GMT -5
Let me start out by saying I do not want to see chondro eliminated.....So what I am about to say strictly applys to PHA..... Instead of refusing registrations for all positive calves just refuse to register PHA positive bull calves starting in 2020....That gives everyone a chance to breed for several more years to obtain a replacement bull if they need one. ASt that point with no positive bulls you can not get any afflicted calves. Over time PHA would disappear yet all of those wonderful cow genes are still available for everyone to enjoy... Just something to think about....You would affect many fewer breeders by limiting your exclusions to bulls only. Just thinking out loud....BTW I have no problem with anyone breeding what they are happy with, I would be behind mandatory testing and reporting if it were the law of the land...
|
|
|
Post by Cascade Meadows Farm - Kirk on Nov 30, 2012 16:02:34 GMT -5
Kirk, For the Registrars around the world, having to add "suspect carrier" to every untested/unreported animal in their registries would be a very time-consuming effort, and not time well spent. Then, when an animal was tested and reported, they would have to go back and change the entries, which is not a painless thing to do, and not time well spent. I have a systems background and I worked with the ADCA's dear former registrar, the esteemed Chuck Daggett (whom we all miss terribly), to implement the carrier tracking and polled tracking in the ADCA registry years ago. It was a VERY simple programming effort for the programmers who help with the system. Based on what I learned from Chuck, it would be a VERY VERY simple matter to mark ALL current untested chondro carriers as "possible/suspect carriers". The programmers can do it VERY easily and automatically. What's sad, is the some folks in the ADCA in leader positions were so afraid of being caught with chondro-carriers, that they made Chuck remove the word "chondro" completely from the suspect carriers... You'll notice that on untested animals or suspected carriers, it doesn't even have a spot for "Chondro". It took EXTRA effort to program that feature to hide the mention of Chondro on their suspected/known carriers. It's really quite disturbing that many of those who are spreading the disease, are also trying to hide it. Obviously, they know that the disease is a BIG PROBLEM or they wouldn't try to hide it. I think it's time we confront the HIDING of genetic diseases in our breed. The angus folks had to confront their disease hiders.
|
|
|
Post by midhilldexters on Nov 30, 2012 16:04:36 GMT -5
The number of posts someone does gives them credibility, oh please. Go to the UK forum, he's been posting there since at least 2006 on and off, they are always happy that he helps with their genetic questions.
Hans, people on the BOD change all the time, just because there are people on there now that may breed Carrier animals doesn't mean there will always be, but I believe an issue like genetic defects would go to the membership for a vote, so that could be interesting.
Carol K
|
|
|
Post by Cascade Meadows Farm - Kirk on Nov 30, 2012 16:25:48 GMT -5
You mentioned a particular show winning cow as being a "Chondro-Carrier" Well the owners must be hiding that fact and unfortunately, the registry allows them to do that if they so choose. Notice they show pictures of the ribbons won, but there's not even a spot for "Chondro status" on the page (because they made Chuck and the system programmers remove even the placeholder for chondro-status completely from the page). www.dextercattle.org/pedigreedb/ponyweb.cgi?horse=14965&HorseName=paula&Page=1&Sort=0In the angus world, hiding genetic diseases is grounds for expulsion. With dexters, hiding genetic diseases is endorsed by folks in key leadership positions. That's scary. Good thing we have multiple leaders and no dictators. Hopefully some of the better leaders will correct the situation before we add and hide more and more genetic diseases.
|
|
|
Post by Tanya on Nov 30, 2012 17:28:42 GMT -5
Elemental, But that was three weeks ago. He's your teacher now. Stay tuned for further education. Koolaid will be served as soon as the comet comes. Gene, Thank You, I will decide for myself who my teachers are. I dont need your help or put downs to make up my own mind. For the record I dont drink koolaid. I think for myself and come up with my own conclusions. I made my own decisions about Chrondo and PHA before I purchased cattle. Now, Why did you decide to address me here? Because it felt like good sport to you? These kind of nasty hits and arguments on the board, are exactly what the membership here do not want the newby's to see. Flat out putting another person down. Have I ever come after you and said your a follower because YOU side with folks I dont agree with? NO, never. I see real character flaws in folks who feel the need to "put another in their place" because they dont agree. Rather then just have a grown up conversation and move on. Please have at least as much respect for me, as I have for you..Thank You.
|
|
jamshundred
member
Help build the Legacy Dexter Cattle "Forever" Genotype database
Posts: 289
|
Post by jamshundred on Nov 30, 2012 17:37:18 GMT -5
This IS the world today. If I don't want it than you cannot have it either. My way or no way.
Let me be quite specific as to my own status. I breed Chondro carriers. They are absolutely the best all-around Dexters in the breed. Now and then. . .a bulldog calf. I don't think the percentage is as high as the US government quotes as normal mortality rates in other breeds these days. Everything, even humans have fetal and infant mortality.
Why do these breeders want rid of Chondro? Because they are what is loved in this breed and what has sustained it from the very beginning and for sure what has always been easiest to market.
It is absolute common knowledge that if you stand two short legs and two long legs side-by-side in front of a potential buyer - they will be immediately attracted to the short legs. Long leg breeders had no ammunition until the advent of the chondro test - and then they went full tilt trying to get rid of the competition. Hundreds of absolutely wonderful Dexters were destroyed. Still are being wiped out of the breed pool. What a tragic loss to our breed pool.
Listen up. Ain't NOBODY taking my carriers away and when you get fed up with the politics and the underhanded method of operation within the political heirarchy ( note the comments on the thread as to what was trying to be accomplished WITHOUT any member imput what-so-ever in the pedigree program) by a couple of long leg breeders and maybe the lightbulb turns on as to how little you actually know and how little you are ever told. Very informative thread indeed!
Judy
|
|
|
Post by wvdexters on Nov 30, 2012 18:03:44 GMT -5
This is such a confusing thread. My questions: What are we trying to do here? What are we trying to accomplish??? What is the point of all this??? And what is the true intent of this thread??
If it is to Come Up With a Genetic Defects Policy. Well then alright let's discuss that
If the intent is to formulate a plan to protect our dexters from future, possible genetic defects and anomalies then let's discuss that.
If the intent is to discuss steps to help free our herd from PHA then great, lets go. Remembering to enable and help owners/breeders who find PHA in their animals. No one wants PHA
Leave chondroplasia off the table and we are all in. The consensus is there.
We can accomplish this goal. Unless (of course) the true intent is to force chondro carriers from the registry.
|
|
|
Post by wvdexters on Nov 30, 2012 18:15:49 GMT -5
Kirk, Please. I don't believe anyone is trying to hide the fact that they have chondros in their herd. There is nothing sneaky or underhanded going on here. It is all quite simple.We are quite proud of our animals. Both short and tall, chondro pos. and chondro neg. We love them all. I really do believe the fact is as I stated earlier. "Shorties" have been Dexters since the beginning. Many don't test if they already know the answer. Until now many have not seen the need to pay the fee to test an animal that is obviously chondro pos. You see dexters come in two body types. Each equal in the eye of the Assoc.
|
|
|
Post by bruff64 on Nov 30, 2012 18:59:18 GMT -5
I am very new to this breed, but I have worked with other cattle and rare breeds. I do not raise Chondro Carriers at this time as that is not what interests me. But, I do believe that caution should prevail in improvement breeding in any breed. Too many instances can be referenced where a breed was improved out of existence altogether. The Dexter cattle breed offers a diversity that no other breed can match. I can breed for a milk type cow, you can breed for a polled beef type cow, your neighbor a chondro type. Add the color variations......lots of options. This is a good thing. If this argument over Chondro gains any more traction then I predict a split in this camp, most likely traditional (both long leg and Chondro) and polled beef type. It happened with the Devon Breed. The Dexter community would be stronger together. Maybe there should be sub-catagories within the registry?
|
|
|
Post by cddexter on Nov 30, 2012 20:00:32 GMT -5
my goodness, away for a few days, and look what I missed.
some thoughts from the tide pools of vancouver island:
After 30 years, I've only ever had one person prefer a dwarf over a nondwarf--even a bigger one--once it was explained to them why there was a difference. In my experience, it's only AFTER the person has bought and becme committed that they buy into the dwarf ideal. Yes, dwarfs have strong eye appeal. Anything cute and fat and small is attractive to humans. Babies would die without this inborn genetic preference.
If breeding dwarfs is such a benefit, and is seen as an okay thing, WHY ARE SO FEW IDENTIFIED. Huge mixed message here.
Judy posts pretty obsesive stuff about pro-chondro. She boasts about breeding chondro carriers together. Not one of her animals regsitered in the ADCA has a carrier status listed. just spent the time to check her Legacy database, and her animals don't have chondro status there, either....
I guess it's all about saying but not doing.
If that's what you want to breed, it's not going to be me that stops you.
One thing I think is imperative, and none of the north american assns are doing anything about it: I suggested years ago (10 to be exact) that we require genetic testing of any Dexter imported from AU or NZ to ensure we do not import the second version of chondro here. One form of it is enough.
Dead silence and averted eyes. owello. Wouldnt this make sense? apparently not. is there anyone on any of the assn boards who would be willing toi raise this issue?
cheers, c.
|
|
|
Post by Cascade Meadows Farm - Kirk on Nov 30, 2012 20:26:03 GMT -5
This is such a confusing thread. My questions: What are we trying to do here? What are we trying to accomplish??? What is the point of all this??? And what is the true intent of this thread?? What's the purpose? The purpose is to discuss the hard issues and ask some tough questions and then to ask world-wide breed association leadership to consider these issues and questions and to develop policies. 1. Do we continue to allow dexter breeders to continue to hide (or ignore) serious genetic defect genes, or should we force those defect genes to be tracked ? (leaving it optional has FAILED MISERABLY and has allowed breeders to HIDE their carriers). 2. Should we continue to allow folks to test for diseases and then hide the results (angus members are expelled for that). 3. Should EVERY animal be marked as a Carrier, Non-Carrier, or Possible Carrier of each disease? or should we continue to hide the status of many animals? 4. Will we continue to produce more and more calves carrying existing serious genetic defects like PHA until the end of time? Or will we adopt a policy to attempt to control and eliminate those serious defects over the long haul? 5. Should we continue to be known as the ONLY cattle breed where many folks embrace a lethal genetic defect, when there are safer proven options to obtain short-legged animals? 6. Should we continue to use confusing and deceitful terms like "Shorties" and "shortlegged" when we really mean Chodrodysplasia-Dwarfism? It's deceitful to use the old terms now that we understand the genetics. 7. Will we embrace every new genetic disease that comes along, the way we are currently embracing pha and chondrodysplasia? 8. Will we shun all other genetic diseases, but embrace ALL the many forms of lethal Dwarfism defects that will come our way? We could end up with 4 or 5 different forms of lethal/defective dwarfism. 9. Will associations continue to promote AI bulls that have NOT been father/daughter tested for possible hidden diseases? Will we allow new diseases to spread far and wide without attempting to find them before they spread? 10. Will associations adopt defect reporting policies and procedures requiring members to report found defects? The largest cattle breed associations on earth have already addressed these questions for their breeds and have good, working policies in place.
|
|