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Post by Dahdo on Dec 25, 2012 18:28:28 GMT -5
We banded three eight month old bull calves two weeks ago. One now has some swelling above the band and doesn't seem to be feeling too good. He is up and grazing, but is a little lethargic. He also stands with his head down and ears back. There is a smell of rotting flesh, which I would expect I guess. The scrotum is very shriveled. The other two bulls seem fine, no noticeable swelling and are behaving normally. They all got CD/T at banding.
I called a friend with a lot more experience and he said to watch for a couple of days and see if he goes up or down. If the calf is eating he is not in crisis. He also suggested an antibiotic as a precaution. I plan go get some LA200 in the morning and call the vet, but is there anything else I should do?
Naturally on Christmas Day right? Hope your day was a good one.
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Post by marion on Dec 25, 2012 19:01:54 GMT -5
That calf deserves a vet call and an antibiotic immediately.. Don't wait to see if he "goes up or down". He already is down and this will not get better without intervention.
ps: There are basic meds you should have on hand at all times as things have a way of happening on weekends and holidays. Swelling 'above the band' and smell indicate infection and his head down posture show he is not well. Do not wait until he stops eating..
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Post by dexterfarm on Dec 25, 2012 19:03:23 GMT -5
At 2 weeks you should be good to go ahead and cut them off. it will take some good sharp surgery scissors to do that. cut them below the band taking not to disturb the band.
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Post by Dahdo on Dec 25, 2012 20:01:58 GMT -5
My vet agreed Marion. He met me at the clinic and got me some penicillin and Biomycin 200. I need to get that man a Christmas present. I am on my way out to give them now.
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Post by emgiger on Dec 25, 2012 22:58:55 GMT -5
This past fall I had a steer develop an infection after banding. It was much more difficult to clear up than I had anticipated. It took about 3 weeks of treatment with penicillin and LA 300 (the vet making two trips to our farm during this time). After seeing the suffering this little guy went through I am determined to never let it happen again. A month ago the vet came out to castrate 5 bull calves, this time using the cutting method that genebo previously described. It was a relatively quick and smooth process. The boys were grazing in the pasture within an hour. I will most likely continue with this method, which was recommended by my vet as well.
Marion is spot-on. There are meds that are handy to keep on hand at all times, namely LA 200 or 300 and penicillin. We had a little bull calf born on December 23rd. We have had very erratic weather (broad range of temperatures), which can cause respiratory issues. Sure enough today (naturally, Christmas) he developed a pretty good cough. I have penned him and his mother up in the barn and gave him a shot of Draxon. We will be keeping a close eye on him the next few days.
Hope your steer gets well soon!
Eileen
ps - LOVE Dr. Pol!
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Post by Dahdo on Dec 29, 2012 13:08:32 GMT -5
He is doing much better. I have been giving him penicillin and Biomycin 200 for past five days (Biomycin every other day) and he has perked up and his swelling is way down.
I have a story about trying to catch him on day 2 of treatment, but it will have to wait. Suffice to say, I penned him up with mom the avoid any more rodeos.
The other two calves we banded appear to be doing fine. I am monitoring them very closely and they don't have any problems. I know my sample is small, but a 33% complication rate is too high and I doubt I will ever do the banding method on older calves again. The calves were well within the size limit specified by the manufacturer (Wadsworth XL) and I even had the vet come out and help to make sure we got the bands on correctly. I am not sure how we could have done it any better, but I would be open to any suggestions from the old hands who band older bull calves.
Eileen, I hope your calf is doing well. Thanks for sharing your story about banding--it helps to know that complications can happen even to more experienced folks.
Dave
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Post by kansasdexters on Dec 29, 2012 18:37:31 GMT -5
Dave,
We've band castrated many bull calves with the Wadsworth XL bander, but none that were more than 7 months old (typically they are 5 to 6 months old). We've never had any complications from this procedure. We do the band castrating ourselves when the weather is cool and dry (few flies) and the calves are clean. Each bull calf is vaccinated with tetanus toxoid and tetanus anti-toxin, prior to banding. They are returned to their dams for comfort and kept on clean pasture areas (no mud). They drink from water tanks, not ponds, and they have no access to creeks or ponds (no mud).
We vaccinate the bull calves at 4-5 months of age with Intervet 20/20 Vision 7 (Pinkeye and Black-leg 7-way vaccine) and Novartis Virashield 6 + Somnus. We booster vaccinate 4 to 6 weeks later. Band castrating is done between the time of initial vaccination and booster vaccination. The steer calves are then easily weaned from their dams at 8-9 months of age and put on fresh pasture.
I would avoid castrating (either banding or cutting) if the weather is damp or muddy. You don't want the banded (or cut) steers to be laying down in manure or mud. Dry, cool weather is the best time to castrate a bull calf.
Patti
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Post by Cascade Meadows Farm - Kirk on Dec 29, 2012 22:21:23 GMT -5
I agree with most everything said in this thread and I'm glad the bull calf is doing better, but I would like to put in one small plug for the natural approach .
Our great grandparents didn't have antibiotics, and that lack of antibiotics caused them to have occasional losses (of livestock and people).
But animals (and people) have natural defenses against bacterias and viruses. Some animals have genetically better defenses than others. The livestock losses that our great-grandparents incurred, actually helped to strengthen our heritage breeds, by culling out the animals with weak natural defenses. Only the toughest animals survived to produce the next generation and they passed on their strong genetics.
If we reach for the bottle of antibiotics too quickly, we may be missing out on a chance to let nature help us select for naturally stronger animals and we may weaken the overall dexter breed, turning them into just another modern breed needing modern medicines to prop them up.
Now certainly in the case of steers, they've already been selected out of the gene pool... so it's just a matter of beef in their case. But even in the case of beef, there are lot of folks who won't eat beef if it has had antibiotics.
For our farm, antibiotics and de-wormers and other medications are only a last measure to only be used in VERY VERY limited cases. But we recognize that we have larger herds and can more easily absorb a loss than someone with a tiny herd. But keep in mind, that a loss of a live animal is a gain in meat (if an animal takes a turn for the worse you can cull them and eat them). So it's not really a complete loss.
Also, we need to remember that bugs evolve to strains that are immune to our antibiotics (and de-wormers), so the less we use those medications, the better (reserving them only for limited desperate measures).
Instead of focusing too much on cures, we should focus more on prevention (which several folks have done in this thread by discussing cutting vs. banding). Constantly moving animals to clean ground is one way to reduce risks of parasites and infections. We like to move expectant moms to new pasture during calving to reduce possible infections and it might make sense to also do the same thing with newly banded steers. It might also make sense to wipe the scrotum and bands with iodine at banding time since the band can "cut" into the skin allowing infection to enter.
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Post by rezzfullacres on Dec 30, 2012 7:50:09 GMT -5
He is doing much better. I have been giving him penicillin and Biomycin 200 for past five days (Biomycin every other day) and he has perked up and his swelling is way down. any suggestions from the old hands who band older bull calves. Glad to hear your steer is doing better. We have never been able to fully evaluate a bull calf's potential until they are much older than normal banding time. We actually wait longer than you did for our beef cows and much less for the dairy ones, we go almost a full year before banding any beef bull prospects and the holsteins were banded by 6 weeks. We use a callicrate bander on the larger animals. Any method you use can have complications, cut calves can bleed to death, banded calves can get an infection etc...As far as I know there is no perfect way to castrate a live animal. Pick the method that works best for you and stick with it...We found most people, some vets included, place the bands to tight to the body of the calf, we have found that moving the band down as low to the testicles as possible makes for a less problematic banding as there is less area that is being constricted by the band. Good luck to you... |
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Post by lakeportfarms on Dec 30, 2012 9:42:50 GMT -5
We've typically used the crimping (burdizzo) method for castration. Because it requires a good technique we have our vet do it (he's done thousands this way). He charges us $5 each, and we haven't had one failure yet or any complications with it, so we'll stick with it for now. Advantages are that the animal is not opened up and susceptible to flies, mud, etc... They seem to have some acute pain, probably less than cutting then presents, but the chronic pain doesn't seem to be nearly as prolonged as the banding method.
Obviously the drawback is making certain that it has been effective, and it takes some time to be sure.
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Post by Dahdo on Dec 30, 2012 14:08:58 GMT -5
All good information and much appreciated. The key to any method seems to be sanitation and vaccination, but it seems particularly important with banding since banding keeps that decaying tissue (external and internal) around and leaves a pathway for infection for weeks instead of days.
This is not the ideal time to band here in western Oregon if you want to avoid mud. Whatever method we use next time I will either do in early fall (5-6 month olds) or late spring (12-13 month olds). These are the best times in terms of having fresh pasture (spring) or at least mud free (fall). This year I was constrained by not having a good setup for keeping the bull calves away from my one young heifer, but I am putting in some cross fencing this winter that will give me options for keeping the bulls separate when needed. If I get any good bull prospects next year, I would like the option to watch them up to 12 months before deciding whether to keep or cull. You may recall that I was asking for advice on keep or cull for a 3-4 month old bull calf earlier this year--well this one with the infection is that calf.
Still on the steep part of the learning curve I guess. Does it ever flatten out?
Dave
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Post by rezzfullacres on Dec 30, 2012 14:16:43 GMT -5
Still on the steep part of the learning curve I guess. Does it ever flatten out? Dave Quick answer.........NO.... There is always something that you have never seen or dealt with the trick is to know who to ask and who to trust..... |
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Post by arlen on Jan 1, 2013 23:17:58 GMT -5
In our area, cut animals consistently bring more at the sale barn than banded or crimped animals. Is that the norm in other parts of the country?
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