Pot bellied bull question

[lisagruen1969]

Helloo, my husband & I recently acquired a herd of Dexters, including a yearling bull named "George", who is quite short and stocky. Our concern is his rotund middle. We wormed him this month against the possibility, and he eats great hay to his contentment, and the only other notable qualiry about him is that he is very vocal when we are around. Does anyone have bulls with similar qualities? Should we have the vet check him again? Thanks everyone!

[cddexter]

you say george is short and stocky. do you know if he's been tested for chondro? short and stocky is ususally a sign of dwarfism, and pot bellied is quite common in dwarfs. it's caused by the reduction in skeleton size, with normal muscle and guts. Guts genetically intended to fill one size are being housed in a smaller area. Since the spine is in the way on top, and the ribs in the way on the sides, the only place left for the guts is down, hence a pot bellied result. this could be your case. cheers, c.

[dexterfarm]

chondro would be my first guess. Not that that is a bad thing many find chondro a very desirable trait but you should have him tested. So that you can avoid breeding him to another chondro if he is.

[Cascade Meadows Farm - Kirk]

Jan 1, 2013 23:49:16 GMT -5 lisagruen1969 said:

Helloo, my husband & I recently acquired a herd of Dexters, including a yearling bull named "George", who is quite short and stocky. Our concern is his rotund middle. We wormed him this month against the possibility, and he eats great hay to his contentment, and the only other notable qualiry about him is that he is very vocal when we are around. Does anyone have bulls with similar qualities? Should we have the vet check him again? Thanks everyone!

While most all Dexters are naturally short, a small minority of Dexters have a form of dwarfism (chondrodysplasia) caused by a defective aggrecan (ACAN) gene which interferes with normal growth of cartilage. This defective gene is considered to be a lethal gene. A single copy of this defective gene results in a mild form of dwarfism. Fetuses with two copies of the defective gene display extreme disproportionate dwarfism, reflecting abnormal cartilage development (chondrodysplasia). Typically, they die around the seventh month of gestation, precipitating a natural abortion. DNA tests are available to screen for the genetic disease (chondrodysplasia), allowing breeders to select non-carriers.

It's a simply matter of pulling some tail hairs and sending them in to the testing lab (The ADCA website has instructions).

Chondrodysplasia and other forms of dwarfism defects are considered to be a VERY bad thing by most cattle breeders including MANY dexter breeders. A small minority of Dexter breeders have learned to live with the lethal gene and enjoy experimenting with it, but they have to be experts with the genetics, and have to spend tons of money on non-stop DNA testing.

If your new potbellied bull, is the sire of any upcoming calves, and you don't know the status of the moms, you could have some dead calves.

Whether your pot-bellied bull has the potentially lethal Chondrodysplasia gene, or not, I would NOT breed from a bull with a potbelly such as the one you describe. You have lots of good options, including AI, and there are likely MANY good bulls available for sale in your area of the country. I'd cull your potbellied guy and put him in your freezer (he'll taste yummy and you'll get your money's worth in meat).

The really great news is that Dexters are a wonderful breed and most of us started with far less than perfect herds. Most of the fun is in gradually improving your herd over time and the good news is that you get to eat the best tasting beef you'll ever have, as you cull your rejects.

Over time, if you use excellent bulls and keep your best heifers (and cull any not-so-great moms), you'll create an amazing herd.


PS. There are actually two different lethal genes lurking in Dexters (PHA and Chondrodysplasia). Most dexter breeders have tested their entire herds for the two genetic diseases to make certain they don't have any carriers. Upon finding a carrier cow, many folks attempt to breed some non-carrier daughters to replace the carrier mom.

[lakeportfarms]

Kirk,

You just can't resist stirring the pot can you? We've covered this over and over again, and you are taking advantage of a new Dexter owner and trying to scare them. Knock it off...education is fine, but when you preach you are turning people off. Perhaps Lisa was attracted to the chondro size and look like MANY of us are, and chose Dexters for that reason. Perhaps she is willing to make breeding decisions in order to have the smallest possible Dexters that are readily available for her own reasons and for the same reasons many of us have chosen. Your "one size fits all" approach is getting boring, and doesn't take into account many unique situations some people may have in their decision to have a preference for a chondro carrier herd.

Lisa,

Don't be put off by Kirk's comments. There are many fine chondrodysplasia carrier bulls out there, and he is not "defective" or "lethal". Many of us have very nice herds with a combination of chondro carrier/non-chondro carrier Dexters and use the available genetic testing to breed appropriately. You can breed this chondro bull to non-chondro cows all the time and have a no greater (I would even say a lesser) chance of having a non-viable calf as a result. Our chondro bull has average birthweights of about 30 lbs. which is MUCH easier calving on first time heifers and full size cows.

The only thing I'll agree with Kirk on is the testing aspect. It is a simple process and with the bundling of tests it is not that expensive to test for chondrodysplasia along with sire qualification or parentage verification on your breeding animals. Sire Qualification is necessary on ANY bulls if you wish to register calves out of them. If you choose to steer him and put him in the freezer one day, no DNA testing is necessary at all.

[Cascade Meadows Farm - Kirk]

The terms "Lethal Gene" and "Defective" and "Disorder" are standard genetic terms.

Here are two links to information about the genetics of the lethal chondrodysplasia defect gene.

www.dexters4u.com/2012/04/short-legged-long-legged-dexters/


This second link is VERY scientific

link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00335-007-9066-9/fulltext.html

[lakeportfarms]

Both Carol and dexterfarm answered the question with their reasoned and experienced thoughts that it may be a chondro-carrier, without bias or without injecting their opinion on what the O.P. should do with their bull.

Disparaging somebody's animal, calling it defective and lethal is not helpful. Many of us raise very successful herds of chondro carriers without any issues. The goal of the thread should be educating these new owners and pointing them in the direction to determine the carrier/non-carrier status of their herd for both PHA and Chondro. They can then make the decision for themselves on how they want to proceed.

Just some additional information...As a chondro-carrier bull matures, they also will lose some of the pot bellied look. The first picture is of our yearling bull Dylan taken around June or July last year when he was about 7 months old (D.O.B. 12-1-2011) Out of one of our smallest non-chondro carrier cows (40"), we expect Dylan to remain very small.




This is Dylan's father, Mike, taken when he was 7 years old. Mike is 39" tall at the hip. Mike is almost 11 years old now.

[Cascade Meadows Farm - Kirk]

The original poster listed a CONCERN and asked for ideas and ADVICE.

"Our concern is his rotund middle. We wormed him this month against the possibility..... Should we have the vet check him again?"

If the potbelly is so very apparent and concerning to the new owner that it makes the new owner wonder if they should call a vet, then my advice (as requested) would be to cull the bull regardless of his Chondrodysplasia status, and choose a better bull. A too-prominent pot belly is a major flaw. This new owner obviously doesn't like the look of potbellies, or they wouldn't be concerned about it.

Others are welcome to give other advice.

[marion]

Hi Lisa. I hope you are still here! A picture of the bull would be a big help, if you can post one. Congrats on your herd purchase. Dexters are so much fun! ..marion

[lakeportfarms]

Lisa,

Marion has a good suggestion, if you need some guidance in how to post a photo any of us would be happy to help.

[cddexter]

might as well wade in...

yes, chondro IS a lethal gene. Calling it something else is just fudging the results. That some people like the looks of a dwarf, but don't want to admit to the genetics, but call them shortlegs or shorties (even 'cuter'), and get all upset when the real words are used, is one of the problems with those who want the type that carries the condro gene.

If it's okay to breed them why is it NOT okay to call it by it's real name: dwarf. Every time this is brought up, the answer comes down to not offending people, especially newbies who might be put off. Well.......slimy double standard here. By gar, look at Gene's post: it's a hay belly. Anything to deflect you away from reality.

On the other hand, there are some advantages to having dwrfs, and after all, before genetics were understood, it was one of the original selection criteria for Dexters. Other breeds used a similar gene, but once they found out what they were dealing with, they bred it out. Only in Dexters (and some dog and cat breeds) is it seen by some as an advantage. Oh, yeah, and before they got their ducks in a row, you used to see it in some miniature horses, too.

Lisa: depending on how much you already know, and what you prefer (fills the eye), go for whatever you like.
Yes, they are cute. Yes the gene is scientifically referred to as a lethal. Yes, you do have to be careful about breeding choices. But, you'll be in good company regardless of what direction your breeding program takes. The bottom line should be are the animals of good quality otherwise, and if not, as a person breeding registered stock, there should be a requirement to do your best to leave the breed in better shape (high quality) than when you started. Have fun.

Cheers, c.

[kansasdexters]

If a cow or bull has a "hay belly", it's usually because they aren't getting sufficient protein in the hay that they are consuming (so they have to eat more of it than what they actually need). Supplementing these animals with 2 to 4 lb/day of alfalfa pellets per head helps to supply the protein needed by their rumen bacteria to properly and to more efficiently digest the hay (they will actually consume less hay when fed this way). Alfalfa pellets also help to provide a good source of other nutrients that are beneficial during the winter months. This approach is beneficial to both dwarf and non-dwarf Dexters.

Patti

[Deleted]

It's the term lethal that can be confusing.

If someone said to you, you have a lethal form of, say cancer, then we humans know shoot, it's lethal, I'm going to die.

Chondro is not lethal to the carrier. It's lethal to the homozygenous Chondro calf.

We know the Chondro status of all our herd whether they were 'obviously' long legged or not. We tested.
And it's not expensive to test.

We test all calves who has a parent who is a carrier.
We do not test those calves who are 'free by inheritance' (where both parents are non-carriers)

Half our herd are Chondro-carriers.

We have 5 bulls, one of which is a carrier. We will breed him to our known non-carriers because his has great strength in feet, height to length ratio and with a top line that has never moved since birth. And his mother has a fantastic udder.

We have a heifer who is a pot-bellied Chondro-carrier.
She is very light on in bone and substance.
So we will wait until she has matured (age 3) before putting her into calf with one of our bulls who is known to thrown bone and substance.
She has good feet, a nice top line and tail set as well as the most feminine face with a nice broad forehead, as well as one of the most endearing personalities we expect of a Dexter which she can offer to her calves.

It's called breeding management.