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Post by indexters on Jan 23, 2013 19:01:18 GMT -5
I am looking for some advice on my bull. Info to know the situation:
He is 18 months and we have had him since October. He is in with 3 heifers, all the same age as him. He came from a farm where he was with a group of other bull calves and not much or any human interaction.
Since bringing him home, we have interacted almost daily with him. Took a few weeks, but he will now come up and eat out of your hand. Till it got cold and mucky, we had been out in the field with him. No problems, but also no halter or petting (just fyi). Now it is winter and we still feed daily and hand feed alfalfa, but are not out in the field much.
Concern and potential problem is now he is starting to show signs of wanting to head butt our legs. He is not aggressive acting, just showing much more curiosity and seeming to test limits. Whereas he used to move away when we walked at him in the field, now he stands his ground. And if we stop and give him time, he will come up to you and given time will start to nudge with him head.
We are concerned this could turn into head butting and aggressive behavior. What we would like to know is how to react and train him to keep his behavior good. We read not to pet a cow/bull on the head as this leads to head butting, so we do not do this. But not certain what the cattle timeout involves.
Any thoughts/suggestions? Wanting to turn him into a keeper and just do not want to make any beginner mistakes. Thanks.
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Post by indexters on Jan 23, 2013 19:20:08 GMT -5
I should mention I read on family cow and cattle forum that the answer is to hit them on the nose/ poke them in the neck with a stick till the behavior is corrected. If it doesn't or gets worse, then steaks for dinner.
I am good with that. Just wanted to see what the group here had to say since you all seem so knowledgeable.
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Post by midhilldexters on Jan 23, 2013 19:38:51 GMT -5
I would firmly slap him on the bridge of the nose and yell NO at him. You may need to use something more firmer than your hand. He should back off, even if in shock to start with. Voice command after a while is all you should need. Make sure you are stern and loud when you tell him NO. If after a time he is not responding, then you may want to reconsider you options with him. Either don't go in with him so he doesn't have that option, or eat him. I know what my choice would be. At that age they are very playful, but that is play you don't want or need.
Carol K
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Post by midhilldexters on Jan 23, 2013 19:45:59 GMT -5
I would like to add that if you don't feel comfortable doing this then don't, your safety is more important than anything and you should never forget that. Even if he does back off, always be aware of where he is and that he can move way faster than you can.
Carol K
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Post by indexters on Jan 23, 2013 20:09:10 GMT -5
Thanks Carol. I have no problem 'hitting' him and yelling. Let's face it, if I use my hand, it is going to hurt me more than him. My 'hit' would probably be construed as a love tap. I am hoping given his age, the fact that he is just now moved up the ladder with the girls (he is finally not being the one shoved out), and his timidness, we can train him up right. Now it seems more curiosity and playfulness.
Just wanted to get some second opinions (I have seen this board disagree with KFC board occasionally). Back in the day, my grandpa had a dairy bull that came with a pitchfork to control him. I do NOT want anything close to that. But if it comes down to it, he will be steak dinner before he will be top cow over us.
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Post by lakeportfarms on Jan 23, 2013 22:02:11 GMT -5
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Post by Cascade Meadows Farm - Kirk on Jan 24, 2013 0:37:10 GMT -5
In every situation with animal problems I always have two questions:
1. What can I do to deal with the immediate situation?
2. What should I be doing (if anything) about the genetics?
Most all issues in animals have some genetic component. Due to economics and other issues, you might have to use a bull like this for a while, but I personally would lean toward culling him and replacing him as soon as possible. Maybe even with one of his upcoming best sons that doesn't have such behavior.
Using a bull like this repeatedly, may lock-in a tendency toward this sort of behavior in your future herd.
PS. Just curious, does he have horns?
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Post by lakeportfarms on Jan 24, 2013 5:41:51 GMT -5
Humans can do a lot to influence behavior. Indexters is looking for things that they can do to change the behavior of the bull, because perhaps there are some cues the bull has picked up on that has led him to the head butting, which is a natural tendency of bulls.
In no event should you EVER invite or encourage a bull (I'm speaking of one past weaning) to move into "your space", whatever you may feel comfortable with. YOU should always be the one that defines how close he'll be to you. On our farm it's 10 feet. It can start with a simple wave of your hands when they're younger to stop them/scare them off.
When you would stand still for a while, and then the bull would approach you is an example of just that. DO NOT let him do that. When he starts doing that wave your hands to see if he'll stop, and a authoritative "HALT" or similar should be spoken at the same time. If he continues to approach, a more memorable action may be required. Then, don't hang around waiting for it to happen again. Give him time to think about it and do it again later in the day, or the next day. It may take weeks, or it may not happen at all at this age. Don't feed him treats any more. You've been reinforcing this behavior. Save the treats until this behavior stops. You can resume them when you want to work with him to put a halter on. I'm constantly finding alfalfa in the dryer screen from my wife's pockets, as we don't make a big deal that we are bringing them treats (until the moment we decide to give them some). Sometimes we do, sometimes we don't. Don't make it an expectation that every time you go out you have treats for him.
Using some of these methods should allow you to approach the bull to work with him, put on a halter, etc..., but not make him so bold that if you happen to be in the pasture and distracted for a minute he'll sneak up on you and start butting or nudging for treats. He doesn't sound like a bad bull, just one that's learned bad habits. Hopefully you can break them, it doesn't sound like it's progressed too far yet. They're pretty smart creatures, and they'll learn, but you have to catch it early.
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Post by lakeportfarms on Jan 24, 2013 6:02:59 GMT -5
I forgot to add that when you are going out with treats, don't have them come to you. You walk toward them with authority at a brisk pace, with the treats in full view when you are ready to feed him (on your terms). He'll learn that is the cue that he is going to get a treat, and he should stand still if he wants one.
Gene posted a video a while back (perhaps on Homesteading today) where he was feeding Brenn bread, and when he rubbed his hands together that meant "all gone". An excellent idea to use whenever you're feeding a bull so they don't follow you out of the pasture looking for more.
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Post by karenp on Jan 24, 2013 6:37:53 GMT -5
Does the head rubbing apply to steers as well? I have a friend who thinks they are being affectionate, I may want to warn her.
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Post by dexterfarm on Jan 24, 2013 9:53:16 GMT -5
yes it is affection/play but that turns very dangerous as they get older. pushing heads to see who is strongest determines there position in the herd. You do not want cow, bull or steer to do this. Our tamest young heifers will do this some. We try to discourage it with out being to ruff on them because we want them to be tame. But if they continue they do get there nose slapped. Ours have all grown out of it when still young but probably would not have with out some correction. with your bull if safe to do so. I would stand your ground when he comes up to you and starts to do this slap him from the side on the soft part of his nose and tell him back. He will likely step back in shock. I would stand your ground and if he approaches again tell him back firmly. He may need another slap. If he comes back at you aggressively do not keep it up but likely he will just be curious and confused about why he got slapped. I would not feed him any more from your hands.
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Post by indexters on Jan 24, 2013 11:12:34 GMT -5
Okay, now I am a little confused. I know everyone does things differently and each animal is different. So I read a lot of you hand feed your cows and have them come up to you/follow you when you lead them. I want this (I think) since we plan to milk at least one of them once they have their first calf. Not sure which will work out best since they are all heifers right now, so have been working with all three.
But it sounds as though I do not want the same behavior in my bull. I understand top cow and all that (we have large dogs and they have to know who is the alpha). But a bull is much bigger potentially dangerous than my biggest dog. I basically just want my bull to be tame but not afraid of us. Though thinking on it, I really should not ever need him coming up for anything like the cows. But I do not see how to train your cows to come when called and not have the bull coming up with them. I also understand the thought of the bull staying in his space, but isn't he going to stay up with the cows (hence herd)?
Really, I have my answer and starting with this evenings feeding, we will see how it goes. I am just wondering how some of you with a bull in a small herd interact with your 'girls' while having the bull around. I will try to find Gene's Brenn video.
I just bought him, so at worst we will have to wait till he has a son with his good qualities and not the bad ones before changing up. But it is not a problem to eat any poor offspring (that is what most of the calves will be for us for the time). We are just starting so we started where we could economically with the thought to improve the herd as possible. And he is heterozygous polled, so no horns to deal with.
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Post by dexterfarm on Jan 24, 2013 11:55:00 GMT -5
We do feed our cows from our hands just not the bull. They dont get treats every day. cows can get pushy for treats to if they start to get pushy they dont get any for a while. The bull doesnt try to push up to get treats because he is not use to getting it from us. If he does come up he usually just stands there with the sad eyes while the others get treats. He does get some small amounts of corn in a feed bunk at times. Keeps him tame but he is not allowed to take feed directly from us and he does not expect it. He will go to the bunck and stand if he thinks he is going to get some. If he is in the mood we will often pet him on the back and he will stand there just as still as can be. Other times he may just walk away when we reach out to pet him
In your case since he has been getting treats from you. You may have to stop treats for all for a while. Or put some food out for him some where and while he is busy feed some of the others.
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Post by hamonsdexter on Jan 24, 2013 12:32:43 GMT -5
Sounds like one of my steers he is the first one to get treats. He is a little to playful. I enjoy it but a lot time i have my toddler children with me. This is not a problem since he will be in the freezer here pretty quick. I will say his playfulness is 100% my fault I have encouraged it. He is my tamest one and I can do anything to him. Except he likse to do the head pushing. This is not something you should do to a herd Bull you plan to keep. It is not a mean or teriotory thing with him but I know it is with most bulls.
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Post by Cascade Meadows Farm - Kirk on Jan 24, 2013 23:23:27 GMT -5
I do not see how to train your cows to come when called and not have the bull coming up with them. I am just wondering how some of you with a bull in a small herd interact with your 'girls' while having the bull around. We have some really amazingly calm and friendly bulls on our place and I haven't had to train them at all. I often have 4 - 7 breeding age bulls mixed in with my 20ish girls (after the girls are pregnant by the chosen bull). I don't really treat the bulls any differently from the cows (with few exceptions). In fact, my biggest worry about getting hurt is from having the boss cow push another innocent cow into me, when they are crowded around me begging for back rubs. The bulls are actually less bossy and less pushy than the girls. I don't expect the bulls to keep a distance, I rather like them up close. When I go out to the herd of mixed bulls and cows, I never give it much thought as they crowd around me, but I would AUTOMATICALLY notice any bull that might be giving a warning, which is very rare and very brief. When I approach a bull that looks like he's in a mood (rare), I DON'T approach him head-on, instead, I walk around him and approach from the rear and rub him on the back while calling his name and he breaks out of the bad mood immediately. I don't do ANY real training with my bulls (other than halter breaking at about 11 months age). I have only had 1 young bull out of 40 that's shown any sign of the head-butting thing. I redirected him and he was fine, but I culled him anyway since I have ZERO tolerance for that. I do cull any young bulls with spicier behavior (but even the spiciest on our farm are relatively trustworthy). I only breed out of the VERY calmest and most trustworthy bulls. I wonder if the success we are having on our farm with VERY easy to manage bulls with NO training (and no hitting and no yelling and no sirens) is related to having the young bulls raised in a pretty natural way. The young bulls are part of the entire herd including moms and older bulls until the young bulls are nearly a year old. So when they are going through puberty they have lots of adults to keep them in line. Even when we separate the yearling bulls, they are with older bulls (we remove all bulls from the calving cows to prevent re-breeding until we are ready). So the young juvenile bulls are never away from the influence of older animals. Perhaps by always having the young bulls with adults, the young bulls aren't allowed to become hooligan juvenile delinquents. So perhaps by culling any bad behavior, along with raising them in a real herd setting, is the secret to success. By the way, I have heard that one of the reasons that dairy bulls are so dangerous, is because they are separated from adults at a VERY VERY young age and they don't learn respect. PS. I can't disagree with what others have said here, because perhaps bulls behave differently in different settings. I'd hate to encourage someone to do something that wasn't safe in their own situation. Modified to add a little note that while you can leave the bull calves in with the pregnant moms and other bulls for nearly a year, the new heifers need to be separated out before they start cycling. You can move their mom's with them if they are still nursing much. Juvenile heifers don't need as much correction from adults as juvenile bulls do.
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