AI or a bull, which should I do?

[ittybittyfarm]

I'm just starting to build my dexter herd, & here's a short version of my plan:
* build a herd of 5-7 young cows as a foundation herd
* sell the heifers
* castrate the bull calves, raise for beef--unless there's a market for a bull calf

Here's my question: should I get a bull calf now (I only have 2 head unless Rosie gives me another heifer calf this year); or AI for a couple of years until I have my foundation and then get a bull; or just use AI?

We have about 20 acres. Currently I have a separate maternity area that I've used for weaning purposes (I think it's about 2 acres), and as a safe environment for new calves. My fencing in this area is page wire. The rest is fenced with rails or a combination of barbed/hi tensile.

If I were to get a bull, what changes would I have to make? I've searched here for information & am confused about when/how I need to keep the sire separate. Obviously from the heifer calves until they reach maturity...but is there any other time?

My hubby (who is clueless about animals) figures I should just get a bull now. Last year we hauled Rosie & her calf to a good bull, but as the herd grows it's not really what we want to do. I don't personally have experience with AI, but there is a tech in the area and long-term the local agricultural college has a course that I could do. I'm in Canada, but have access to some excellent AI straws.

Any suggestions would be appreciated.

I guess I should add that feed is not an issue--we put up enough hay now from our fields that we sell the excess.

[dexterfarm]

it is easier to just get a bull rather than deal with AI if you can find a bull you want. You have plenty of land for it. Our bull stays with the herd June through December so that we dont get any winter calves. when he is separated he needs company which changes who we put with him year to year. This year he is with a cow we know is pregnant and her steer calf. He is happy and content with them.

[ittybittyfarm]

Thanks for your input Mike. So if I were to purchase a bull this year, I could conceivably use him for three years--on Rosie, Zena (her calf from last year) and Rosie's calf from this year (assuming a heifer, of course). After that, I would have to either sell/butcher him & get a new bull that I could run for another three years?

Or do I have things mixed up?

[dexterfarm]

You would breed the heifers at one year old. so if you were keeping his daughters and did not want to use him on any of them then it would be every 2 breeding seasons. However if you have a good bull and are happy with the calves you are getting out of him. Then there is no reason not to use him on his daughters. Many of the finest Dexters out there are line breed.

[lakeportfarms]

As Gene mentioned, there are advantages to having a bull over AI. First and foremost is the easier management of your breeding. A good fertile bull will insure that your cows are bred, at the earliest possible date they're capable of being bred. Less guesswork, checking heat cycles, pregnancy confirmation, etc...

We calve year round. We've had a number of cows that have moved up at least a month if not two months every year. In the average lifespan of a cow that's an extra calf. With 7 cows, that's seven (or more) extra calves during those 12-15 years.

As Dexterfarm said, you have plenty of room to run a bull with the cows. Consider doing managed grazing, which can improve the amount of forage that your herd has by 30-40% AND improve your pasture at the same time. Now the bull costs even less to keep, and at the end of his useful life you'll still get a freezer full of meat. I know you mentioned you put up hay, but there is the opportunity cost to take into consideration if you are feeding it to the bull instead.

[karenp]

From what I have read on here the young Dexter bulls are capable of breeding at a young age. Could you keep a bull calf from cow #1 until he is about 6 months old and let him breed cow #2 before castrating him to raise for beef?

[hamonsdexter]

I see two issue with it. You a putting alot of eggs that he will be ready tp breed a young age and two it is hard to tell if he goign to be a quality Bull until he is a lot more mature. Some traits do not poke there head right waya when it come to Bulls

[ittybittyfarm]

Thanks for all the great information. I believe I'll begin looking for a good herd bull. I've been lurking on the threads about confirmation and what's needed. I have a few months as Rosie & Zena won't be ready until June or so. Up here I'd just as soon not have winter calving. Some do, but last week we were at -40 with the windchill & I don't have a heated barn.

Lakeport, I've thought of a modified rotational grazing...keeping in mind that we do have to feed hay some years as early as the beginning of November and as late as May; so keeping enough hay is kind of important. I could buy hay, but it seems counter-productive I think.

I have to say I'm a bit overwelmed about choosing a bull, but I'll take my time to find something I like...

[ian]

Hi ;D

This is my 2 cents worth. I bought three heifers just weaned, 1 heifer in calf, and a cow in calve in March 2012.

I'm in a unusual situation I'm on the BJD (Bovine Johnes Disease) MAP program and the animals I bought are from a BJD free herd (Rawlings). This means if and when I buy a bull he must come from BJD free herd or I loose my BJD free status. There are not many Dexter herds on the program at this time so not a lot choices.

I decided to go with AI for the the first couple of years and have just completed my program for this season yesterday (unless she comes back on heat). The first two heifer took on the first service the third heifer and cow took on the second service, and the last one served yesterday was a second service. So I have used 8 staws to get 5 girls in calf.

Also we are in a Dairy Farming area so AI techs are plentyful.

The other thing to concider is the cost of buying and keeping a bull against an AI program do some maths, It does not become viable to keep a bull unless you have 10 or more females for him to service.

Using AI for the first two seasons will give me time to find or breed a bull.

I have also bought a senior cow that is a proven breeder and is in calve so fingers crossed she gives me a bull calf later this year.

So in conclusion if I was in your shoes I would be going AI for a couple of years. This will also give you time to find the best bull possible for your breeding program. Do not rush this process and get the best bull that you can afford. There are a lot of rubbish bulls out there so take your time and get good advise (from someone who is not trying to sell you a bull), before you make that all important purchase.

Regards

Ian

[Gorignak]

AND FROM THE LEAST EXPERIENCED OF THE LOT.

I bought a cow, two heifers and a bull....darlings every one of them. The cow delivered a calf the day I picked them up. She got rebred about 5 weeks later, and it must have took.....the bull has only been a "buddy" since then.

Several of the folks advocating a bull were suggesting AI to me. Then, pictures of my bull were posted and ??....."maybe you should keep him". I was scared to death of inbreeding. The folks here do it ALL the time, and some of the best herds did it incessantly. My cattle are so inbred that I have the same situation that was described to me about one local backwoods town......" there's a guy there that is his own grandfather".
I do not / I do regret keeping my bull......HUH..... I had the bulldog calf...the thread with 1300 hits!!! I would never wish that on anyone. SO....how is your chondro pos/neg situation..... I hope PHA is non existent.

NOW....let's address the problem I have not seen addressed...... How many of you let a 1000+ lb bull jump a little 14 month shorty heifer. Ours came into heat at 13 months and the sight was a nightmare......she was tiny from lack of proper feeding by her previous owner, and we did a heroic recovery mid-copulation that was successful....yes, we pulled the bull off of the heifer and haltered her and led her out....Our bull is a real gentleman, but I don't EVER want to do that again.

SO.....non chondro bull.....developing herd with mix of short and long cows and heifer calves ..... WHAT do you propose at first breeding.

I saw a wonderful possibility on a U of Neb plans site. A breeding ramp where the heifer/cow was secured and the bull's weight was on parallel ramps on either side.....

I have evolved my chondro/non-chondro plans, and part of the evolution was due to the fact that this situation would be encountered by me if I continued as first planned. I would have the 5-9 year old bull, in the peak of shape, in a herd of 14-16 month shorty heifers.

Solutions for the folks I have a bull for now, but am AI'ing my heifers.

[Cascade Meadows Farm - Kirk]

Feb 1, 2013 14:52:18 GMT -5 karenp said:

From what I have read on here the young Dexter bulls are capable of breeding at a young age. Could you keep a bull calf from cow #1 until he is about 6 months old and let him breed cow #2 before castrating him to raise for beef?

Most bulls are not capable of breeding until 10 or 11 months of age.

[dexterfarm]

Gorignak, generally speaking a year old heifer chondro or not should have no problem supporting a bulls weight. They are much stronger than they look. I feel worse for one that I have that was just over a year old when I pulled the bull for the winter. she had had a few heats and I thought she took, she did not. Now every 3 weeks the other cows run her all day long she will have to put up with it until June when the bull goes back in and she can finally get some rest.

[Cascade Meadows Farm - Kirk]

Feb 1, 2013 16:55:34 GMT -5 Gorignak said:

How many of you let a 1000+ lb bull jump a little 14 month shorty heifer.

We would cull any heifer that can't easily be bred by our key bull at 13-14 months (we've never had to cull one yet). We aren't willing to provide special accommodations on our farm. If the bull is the problem because he's too big, then he'd get culled too. Breeding is effortless and problem-free on our farm because we don't tolerate "special needs".

We've got a little shorty (non-chondro, true-short) that I was a little worried about, but she did fine at 13-14 months. I was prepared to cull her if she couldn't handle it. If you don't cull the weak animals, then you just pass your problems to the next generation and continue to have to make special accommodations for the rest of your farming life.

[lavacaw]

I took a big gamble and bought a fairly well behaved eight month old bull. His sire and dam were on the premises and both looked good. The plan was to leave him in a bullpen for a couple of months but somebody missed the ties on a stock panel and the next thing we knew he was in with the heifers and didn't want to go back. Figuring they were all older than he was, we left him. He started breeding with the first heat cycle. He has matured into a nice looking, fairly well behaved herd sire. We have some good looking calves - 4 bulls and a heifer.

[Gorignak]

Thanks Mike....My perspective is limited, and my only experience is with the cattle I just bought. I think that the cattle's mismatch was nutritionally driven. We have pampered the yearling heifer mentioned, and in 5 months she grew enough to be equal in size to her 3 year old sister.
That being said, I am still unconvinced that a mismatch is not possible, or even probable. In the photos available, the bulls seem to be trending upward in size. It seems that a mismatch would be possible with a smaller framed chondro positive heifer. Any others with experience, I would love to hear your tales.

Kirk.....your repetitive, self serving replies are trending from unsettling to downright frightening. Do you lack the emotional insight, or breadth of personality to not be aware of the negative effects of such a monochromatic series of responses. While all are interested in hearing your "experiences" and "preferences", few here are so limited as to think they are unique or special, as you seem to.
As to "culling".....are you so marginally aware, to think there is a person who regularly posts on this forum who doesn't selectively breed and cull to the best of their experience and economic ability. The obviously narcissistic elements of your responses are out of place. If you want to offer and promote your version of bovine eugenics, why don't start a "culling" thread and limit your involvement with the subject to that. I GET THE MESSAGE....I got it the day we had the bulldog calf....I have gotten it since then....and I get it on this thread.....ENOUGH.....I don't need to get kicked by a mule a second time to see if it really hurts.