Critique please of young bull - honestly

[Deleted]

I would like an honest and constructive critique please of the following little man.

While we may, or may not agree with comments, they certainly will help us to 'watch out' for points raised as he matures which in turn will greatly assist us.

So dont be afraid or hold back - we would like to know the differing opinons please.

1.5 week old


Again at 7 weeks

[kansasdexters]

Before I ever consider a bull calf as a prospective herd sire, I carefully evaluate his dam. She must be a "bull worthy" cow, which means (to me) that she must have an excellent health history, calving record, temperament, conformation, and dual-purpose breed type. She must have good udder shape, attachment, proper teat size and placement, and have gone through at least two, and preferably, at least three lactations. She must have good feet and legs, a well balanced body, feminine head, soft eyes, full mouth (no lost teeth), and no underbite or overbite. She must have produced all of her calves unassisted and been bred back each year with no more than two service attempts. In short, she must be one of my best and most productive cows.

Let's see some photos of this bull calf's dam and let's evaluate her first. If she is a suitable "bull mother", then it will be worthwhile to discuss her offspring. Otherwise, you're better off having a nice steer than a "good looking" bull calf that will sire daughters with multiple and undesirable faults.

Patti

[wdd]

Patti is correct. There are many bulls that could win in the show ring based on looks alone, but when it comes to the calves he produces he might a bust. Your little guy looks like a nice little bull that could grow out to a nice looking bull. But that can't predict the genetics he has to pass on to his decendants. Qualities of the Dam can be the best indication of what his genetic potential could be. Looking at Sire and other of his decendents is another way of judging potential.

[Deleted]

Thanks guys but this is the bull's first bullcalf and second calf in as many weeks, and it is his dam's second calf.

Genetics take two to make one. And there are many genetics involved in the reproduction of an entity. Some dominant and others recessive depending on the other gene it is paired with during reproduction.
I wouldnt even begin to assess a calf on the genetics of one of its parents who had only a 50% say in its being.

One sire and one dam can produce a great looking offspring, and future same joining can produce nothing.

I would find the assessment of a bull, as a sire, only after he has put a minimum of 10 calves on the ground, and each calf was related to the sire only meaning each of the 10 cows had completely different bloodlines from the other.

Then assessing said calves on their physical appearances would only be a guessimate as to the quality of the said bull anyways.

This little guy will stay entire - he will be joined on at least 5 of our 14 girls who we believe could be genetically matched for him, and then we will be re assessing where to go from there.

We call this "sitting on him"

I was seeking an evaluation of him as a Dexter. Just needed some comments and fresh eyes looking at him for undesirables and faults that as his owner, I may not be able to see since I have been watching him since birth.

Cheers

[kansasdexters]

Lindon,

Here is why the dam is such a key element to a high quality herd sire:

1. We know that 50% of nuclear DNA comes from the sire's sperm and 50% of nuclear DNA comes from the dam's egg, and that this combination forms the nucleus of the fertilized egg. What most people don't realize is that 100% of the mitochondrial DNA (found in the cytoplasm of the egg) comes only from the dam.

2. Unlike the DNA found in the chromosomes of the nucleus, which is inherited from both parents, cattle (and other sexually reproduced organisms) get their mitochondria from only one parent -- their mother.

3. Although both males and females have mitochondria in all of their cells, only females pass theirs on to their offspring, because only females produce eggs. After the successful sperm reaches the egg to deliver its package of nuclear chromosomes during fertilization, it has no further use for its mitochondria, and they are jettisoned along with the tail, prior to entry into the egg.

So why is this so important? Well, the mitochondria are tiny structures within every cell of the body. They are not in the cell nucleus (which contains the chromosomes), they are in the cytoplasm which surrounds the nucleus. Their job is to help cells utilize oxygen to produce energy. The more vigorous the cell is, the more energy it needs and the more mitochondria it contains. Cells from active tissues (muscle, nerve, and brain) contain hundreds of mitochondria each.

In each mitochondrion is a tiny piece of DNA, called mitochondrial DNA. The genetic code in mitochondrial DNA is slightly different from the one that is used in the nuclear chromosomes. Mitochondrial genes hold the code for the oxygen-capturing enzymes that do the work in mitochondria. All of this mitchondrial DNA comes only from the mother and because it is intimately connected with oxygen use and energy production in every cell, it affects the vigor and life long health, fertility, and aging rate of the offspring.

So choosing herd sire prospects only from dams that have excellent health histories, and records of high fertility and production of vigorous, healthy calves is one of the most important steps a breeder can take to help assure the long-term success of their own herd and ultimately to make positive contributions to the success of the breed.

We learn more about the importance of mitochondria every year. Here is an interesting article about its importance in the innate immune response to virus:

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3193288/

When you have successfully identified the "bull mothers" in your herd, you will stand a much better of chance identifying and raising superior male calves for use as herd sires.

Patti

[dexterfarm]

While I agree the dam of the bull is important. If what you say is true then it makes no difference what mitochondrial DNA the bull caries because he cant pass it along to the offspring.

lindon, calf looks good. In the second picture he looks short in length but I think it may just be that picture in the 3rd he looks nice and long.

[kansasdexters]

Dexterfarm,

The dam's mitochondrial DNA can ultimately affect her son's vigor, health, fertility, and longevity as a breeding animal. That's why it's important in the selection of a bull.

He cannot pass on her mitochondrial DNA, but he directly benefits from it in his role as a herd sire and he can pass on her nuclear DNA, since it's 50% of his nuclear DNA.

Patti

[Deleted]

Mar 11, 2013 21:20:55 GMT -5 @genebo said:

Dexterfarm pointed out the reason I would never judge a Dexter from a photograph. They can look so different in each photo.

Oh I am totally aware of how pictures can lie, but like I said, I really wanted fresh eyes run over this guy to see if there is anything we are missing when we look at him.

[Deleted]

Mar 11, 2013 21:27:48 GMT -5 kansasdexters said:

Dexterfarm,

The dam's mitochondrial DNA can ultimately affect her son's vigor, health, fertility, and longevity as a breeding animal. That's why it's important in the selection of a bull.

He cannot pass on her mitochondrial DNA, but he directly benefits from it in his role as a herd sire and he can pass on her nuclear DNA, since it's 50% of his nuclear DNA.

Patti

I understand what you are saying, but how do we assess this when this is her second calf and her first calf is an unproven sire at 15 mths of age?

[Deleted]

Mar 11, 2013 20:58:31 GMT -5 dexterfarm said:

While I agree the dam of the bull is important. If what you say is true then it makes no difference what mitochondrial DNA the bull caries because he cant pass it along to the offspring.

lindon, calf looks good. In the second picture he looks short in length but I think it may just be that picture in the 3rd he looks nice and long.

Congratulations Dexterfarm, and good eye - as in the three pictures, his appearance is even more elusive when looking at him in person from different angles and with movement.

His mother is a carrier, so we had him tested for BD1 as we do for all calves who has one carrier parent
............................... - he is a carrier ;D

[tarsallat]

Spose you were aware of his loose sheath, flat feet and high tail head? Maybe not bull material with those 3 faults?

[Deleted]

Hi agree on the tail head being not quite where we would like it.

Feet, must be the pics, disagree on that one.

And we thought the same too about his sheath, so we clipped him two weeks ago. He is now near 5 mths old.
And it was hair. Actually he had quite a good thick growth happening on his under belly.
Not saying his sheath is perfect now, but doesn't look anywhere near as loose as it did. We are watching him as he appears to be growing into it...........or it's our wishful thinking, not sure yet.

Thanks for the pointers, this was exactly what I was looking for when I posted the pics.

[cddexter]

id have to second the foot issue. in the second pic where you can clearly see his foot angle, there doesn't seem to be any heel at all. that may be a feature of his age at the time the pic was taken, but i'd keep an eye on this one, especially since so many dexters have poor feet....

i don't think it's a high tailhead, i think he has a common 'fault' with the dip just before the tailhead. that's not the same thing. otherwise, looks quite nice. i'd like to see his muzzle width more clearly to really give a better opinion. cheers, c.

[midhilldexters]

That dip before the tail that we are seeing more and more of in our breed, does anyone know for sure what causes it? I used to think it was a rear angulation issue, but I'm not so sure now. It's getting as common as nasty sheath attachments and I find my eye being drawn to it all the time.

Carol K

[Gorignak]

THANKS ALL....I need this in small...BUT UNDERSTANDABLE....doses. I don't know Jack....but the feet look suspiciously canted backwards.


Patti opened with:

All of this mitchondrial DNA comes only from the mother and because it is intimately connected with oxygen use and energy production in every cell, it affects the vigor and life long health, fertility, and aging rate of the offspring.

What physical expressions of Mitochondrial DNA transmission are ...quantifiable.....visible.....measurable. What yardsticks (with actual, quantifiable numbers on them) can we use to measure the values and the eventual transmission of these expressions. The general terms used here, suffice to keep all (novices, wannabees, and uneducated involved) discussing the impact of the MDNA......
......BUT, are there measures in this era of testing that would complement the PHA, Chondro tests? Atheletes are measured and monitored for oxygen consumption, liver functions are tested for $10.
Science has its roots in anecdote....that vague "women's intuition" or "farmer's Knowledge", that has served us so well on all fronts. If I had my way, I'd rely on my "sixth sense" and let the cards fall as they may.

BUT, in this era of precision and focus, I would like to hear what traits and characteristics that might be affected by the Mitochondrial DNA have become measurable.

Beyond having to assimilate all the XYZ-123 that will be required to make sense of it...... I'd rather have Patti's or Carol's "eye" and intuition than all the numbers in the world.

Many Thanks..............

I realize that I have expanded beyond a critique of this single calf, but the seeds of growth were planted with the observation that "looks" mean little when evaluating long term performance, and that an overview of background genetics is probably more important. If the answer to MY question expands this too much...I/we/Olga can remove this and we can start a discussion on the Genetics thread.